to be fed up of hearing 'I've worked hard for my money'

[newbluesofa]

Lots of chat on MN recently about taxes on high earners. So heard lots of 'we have this money because we work bloody hard for it' and honestly I'm sick of it and think the people who say it are selfish.

Nurses work incredibly hard, long shifts, difficult job. Carers provide absolutely essential service, again shift work, difficult hours, difficult job. Teachers provide essential work, I know multiple teachers and they all devote evenings, weekends, school holidays to the detriment of their own families. All of these jobs also have huge emotional tolls. So 'I've worked hard for my money' means nothing to me, because a lot of people work a lot harder for a lot less.

I am happy to tell people I worked hard for the life of luxury I now have. Years ago we went bankrupt had house repossessed. Times were tough but we pulled through and built security. Lived many years counting every penny. I take great joy now swanning round waitrose putting whatever I like in my trolley. I earnt the life I have. I will enjoy the results.

But it’s not specific to people on £100k+ though is it? I’m on median income (fine by me and not begrudging those on more) and I can give you same examples.

Qualifications and Responsibilites.

Taking time to get those qualifications. How do you fund being a student with a family, unless you have a partner earning enough to support you?

Up thread someone compared a Labourer to an Accountant that is very simple comparison.

But don't think Labourers are completely unskilled, they are a semi-skilled trade many of whom carry certifcates for various bits of plant and machinary.

An Accountant couldn't bin his calculator and walk onto site tomorrow and get paid the same as a Labourer with labouring qualifications.

There is also the thing of contounity of work. Construction rolls by their nature are short term.

But I do also think some professions are seriously under paid inc teachers, and carers

I work low skilled jobs. I don't believe I've been poor while working. I would have liked to study medicine or biological science, but I just feel like it's too late now. If there were courses exclusively for adults and the student funding was apt I would consider studying. I don't believe someone can study at that level and work if they want to pass the course well. I also don't want to be studying alongside mostly young people as I would feel out of place. People born into privilege are lucky as it's just what they do when they are 18 they have been conditioned into it

Because hard work and earnings/wealth aren't directly correlated. Just look at the entirety of world history.

That’s not answering the question though is it, are you saying it is entirely luck? Privilege?

Systemic inequality created and maintained by those with the most power and money, who have no interest in changing this. For individuals within that system, yes, luck and privilege (including upbringing, expectations based on family's/circle of acquaintances' circumstances, contacts, education, etc.), also intelligence, skill, aptitude and personal capacity for ambition (which not everyone has, and it doesn't make them in any way less deserving of a decent life).

My personal belief is that working a full-time job should provide enough money for someone to support themselves (by which I mean afford housing with a realistic commute to where they work, pay for food and bills without worrying, with some entertainment/disposable spending/saving), regardless of whether they are the kind of person who is willing or able to "better themselves" as described above. As our economy isn't set up to allow that seemingly basic equation, I don't see a problem with top-up benefits.

Would it make you feel better if I told you that I get paid £80k pa and do virtually fuck all for it?

Right well I came from a working class family, grew up with parents not knowing how the next bill would be paid, I myself had children very young, but have become a high earner. I’m absolutely not denying that the system is rigged and I still had some luck and privilege along the way, but we can’t have a sensible discussion on the matter if we reduce people to their class and make them victims and high earners “bad guys”. It’s not binary matter of high earners don’t work hard or whatever else, it’s that kind of dismissive generalisation that makes people think they won’t be to “better themselves” because it’s not for them.

We have one life to live, we have the system that’s been built, you can give into it, or work with it.

I imagine most working people work hard. Some don't, my ex-DP rose to a very high paid job where he was on call for emergencies but had little to do day-to-day, though he never claimed he worked hard for that high rate of pay. I did way more hours for far less money, physically more exhausted. I also don't get the thing of people saying "but I've worked all my life" when that's not an uncommon thing, it's not really a competition to say someone works harder than someone else.

Yabu

Hard work in our case has meant 7 day weeks, working evenings, sometimes until 2/3am and giving up annual leave when necessary. A retail worker on 35 hours isn’t coming close to the hours my DH puts in. Massive family sacrifice necessary - missing all sorts of child related stuff over the years and putting our own health on the fire. We earned every penny. If we were 20/30 years younger, we would be emigrating immediately.

Skill, lack of drive/motivation to better themselves.

@newbluesofa I agree with you completely, and think you're being very patient! I'm getting pretty pissed off reading some of the responses you're getting tbh - "go better yourself", "being poor is a choice", "I've sacrificed things", "I work at the weekend sometimes".

I already asked this, but to all the people arguing with the OP - what choices did I have? What sacrifices did I not make?

At 17, I moved in with an abusive boyfriend because it was better than living at home. By the time I was 19, my wee brother was living with us - sleeping on the sofa in our mouldy one bed flat. I had to support him as well as myself, pay half the rent, pay for his school stuff, feed him, make sure he did his homework. I worked every bloody hour I could, in the job I could get at the time, so I was able to take care of him. What wrong choice did I make? What did I not sacrifice that I could have?

In fact, I think I made great choices, since I'm still alive and don't take drugs and I'm not an alcoholic, and I don't beat up my kids, And DB is an adult now, and healthy and in a lovely relationship and has a good job. And I've made big sacrifices - I'd love to have gone to uni. My kids are in childcare, I work weekends when I have to, I've missed nativities, I travel and do overnights away from home for work. I have risk and responsibility and consequences in my job. I'm still a low earner.

You make a good point. To earn more money I would need to retrain or at the very least go sideways and then up. But how to do that? I can’t give up work and go to university for three years. Would need to find two households during that time. Work won’t let me go part time so I couldn’t do a part-time degree even I could make the finances work for that. OU don’t offer what I need. Besides all that I’m not sure another degree is the right path or that I’d even get in (not the right A levels).

I really miss old-school evening classes. Nothing beyond basic maths, English, IT, getting into care work in the day time is available round here. Picking up an A level or a vocational skill in the evenings or weekends would be a great route for me.

It’s sounds like you did make good decisions in very trying circumstances. Life is unfair, you were in a shit situation so your difficult decisions look different to others. But if we compare more like for like, so perhaps a sibling pair with similar background, one goes to uni, moves across country, changes job regularly, pushes themselves out of their comfort zone, earns £100k. The other stayed in their home town, didn’t go to uni, works long hard shifts in a warehouse. No doubt the latter sibling is working hard, but would you really deny that the first sibling also worked hard? They took different paths, “hard” looks different in both circumstances, but the first sibling took some strategic decisions to get there. They should be able to say they worked hard. And that’s not denying the privilege and luck of having the ability to take those steps.

When people say they work hard, I don’t think they are saying others don’t, there is no need to project, they are just reviewing their own life and concluding they worked hard, they’re not critiquing you.

This is the last thing I'll say on this thread as I'm feeling quite sick at reading poster after poster with these horrible attitudes. To those who think that poor people are poor because of their choices/not working hard enough: Well done, don't you make a lovely little pet for the elite of this country.

Poverty is a SYSTEMIC issue. It is intentionally created and purposefully built into the way our country works. I've said a few times to read Hired by James Bloodworth for some good real world examples of how this works in practice.

It serves the people in power to disseminate the idea that where you end up in life is purely down to individual choice. That poor people only have themselves to blame. Yes there will always be specific examples where people have beaten the odds and become wealthy coming from poverty, but those are the exceptions for a reason.

The thing is it's so boring to see people say that. You can't see that that's what they WANT you to believe? You're happy to just lap it all up and parrot it back like a good little follower of the powerful? Keeping people down serves the rich, so that's what they do. That's what our country has done throughout history and anyone who thinks it's any different now has had the wool pulled over their eyes. Either because they're too ignorant to see otherwise, or because they're hoping that if they go along with it then the wealthy elite will share some crumbs with them.

Yes, lots of people work hard. Plenty don't. What is your point? That we should 'redistribute' the money that people have the gall to believe they've worked hard for because someone else hasn't been as lucky? Just say you're a Communist then.

You just constantly trot out left wing books by left wing people. We came from poverty, from a developing nation. DH and I didn't both ask to lose a parent when we were both still in uni.

We just moved here, worked very hard and have given a good life for our kids. Should our kids feel bad for their success because their parents did well?

Social mobility isn't great in this country, but it is possible if you work hard, take life by the reigns and do what you can.

Do you not see that keeping people down is what Labour is doing? Keeping people in a form of state dependence is keeping people down. I teach in a hugely deprived cohort. Increasing money will not help. It needs to be targeted. It will just lead to more substance abuse and it won’t go to the children.

The VAT on school fees is another. All the outreach and bursaried places to deprived communities are being stopped. For some, that was their ticket out. Same for some children with SEND who had been failed by the state. Or middle earning parents who tried to better the circumstances of the next generation. The actual rich, scoff at a 20% increase and absorb it with ease. Thus meaning private education as become more elitist than ever.

The punitive tax system means people are stopped from keeping much of their money when they have worked for it, it then gets redistributed to people who don’t. Layer upon layer of redistribution. Can’t have the working class on PAYE making something of themselves can we? Better keep the earners in their place whilst the actual rich don’t pay anything in comparison.

Born into privelage I'll take exception too. Thousands of students have parents in 'working class' roles. Who never did uni back in the day.

One thing I really would like to see is better support for care leavers to get to uni and accommodation between uni years.

Technically all uni courses are for Adults as in over 18s. There might be the odd 17 yo but the majorty will be 18+

Socialist

Still bonkers.

So you think it’s all completely out of your hands, you have no options, no opportunity and should what? Just accept it?

My parents were working class, debt collectors at the door fairly frequently for a period during mg childhood. I didn’t go to uni, have no qualifications beyond some really bad A-level results that aren’t worth having. No family money, connections or influence to help me out and both parents were dead by the time I was 28.

I decided I wanted to have the kind of job that would support me financially to a good standard, that would allow me to save so my child would have a nest egg by the time she’s ready to go it alone, and I made it happen.

I haven't said that I support Labour. I agree with you. Fiddling about with taxing wages is just a red herring when we should be looking up

Pople who sit behind a desk do not know the meaning of hard work.

Try mucking out a long row of stables, hacking at a coal face, digging trenches & mending roads, refuse-collecting, tree surgery, cleaning dozens of hotel bedrooms, lugging cardboard boxes round a warehouse for 10 hours, looking after umpteen shrieking toddlers in a day nursery or holding the hand of a terminally ill person as they die. That's what hard work is.