to be fed up of hearing 'I've worked hard for my money'

[newbluesofa]

Lots of chat on MN recently about taxes on high earners. So heard lots of 'we have this money because we work bloody hard for it' and honestly I'm sick of it and think the people who say it are selfish.

Nurses work incredibly hard, long shifts, difficult job. Carers provide absolutely essential service, again shift work, difficult hours, difficult job. Teachers provide essential work, I know multiple teachers and they all devote evenings, weekends, school holidays to the detriment of their own families. All of these jobs also have huge emotional tolls. So 'I've worked hard for my money' means nothing to me, because a lot of people work a lot harder for a lot less.

Amen

The implication is very often 'Poor people on benefits don't work hard & that's why I shouldn't have to pay more 1/6d income tax'.

So, being poor is a choice?

I’m a high earner and I don’t think I work especially hard these days because I don’t really need to. I worked very hard and strategically when I was younger. I moved across country, paid a fortune for additional qualifications, I commuted for 4 hours a day, I changed jobs regularly despite being comfortable and pushed myself out of my comfort zone to get new connections and skills. I sacrificed time with my children.

My reward for that is skills and expertise that are niche and highly paid but easy for me to expend, I’m able to negotiate my working conditions and have a lot more freedom than most. I’m not arrogant enough to put it all down to hard work, there was plenty of luck, privilege and fortune along the way I don’t take for granted my ability to take those chances. But equally, I know I made decisions that many people frankly aren’t willing or able to, and that’s where I worked hard, and I think that’s what a lot of high earning individuals mean. If it was easy as just putting in huge amount of manual hours everyone could be a high earner. But that’s not how society is set up.

Yes. If you are physically and mentally able. You have 2 arms, 2 legs and you don't have any needs to care for relatives. I'd say yes. There are people who do 2/3 jobs to make ends meet. I commend them for what they do.

You make your own success.

I wasn't responding to you. You've made your ignorant opinions perfectly clear and I'm fed up of trying to explain privilege and systemic poverty to you.

Work is hard, whether you're a care home care assistant or a lawyer but one is paid significantly more. I object to taxing a care home assistant to pay for those who do not, can't be bothered or consider it not worth their while to work.

I think most people here are posting from the perspective of being employed, and quite a few would seem to resent their employers for taking too much in profits. From a small business perspective, let me set out our story. My DH left school at 15, with less than a full handful of O levels. He is very dyslexic and was very talented at cricket but failed to make it to the county game (pre-professional) because he wore thick specs.

So he worked up through driving a delivery van and running a garage supply branch until he had an overseas opportunity in oilfield services, which he took. He saved money in five years abroad tax-free and came back to the UK, where he spotted an under-served business. He started a business with an engineer to provide the services needed, and ploughed in his savings pot of about £30k. I paid the mortgage and bought the food, also self-employed, and after two years, the business was turning a profit. It came at a price; we cancelled weekends away at short notice because the work that was going needed doing over that weekend, or we didn't get the work.

It doesn't always run smoothly; he can never predict what business is going to come next week or next year, and it can go from feast to famine and back over a few months, but now we have a payroll to meet too. We have five families earning sensible salaries (no NMW staff) who depend on us making decent decisions. We don't get paid anything from the business in lean times, and we try to pay 13 months wages a year, one bonus month at Christmas, so please excuse my complete contempt for a government of which not a single member has ever worried overnight about paying their staff's wages. Most small companies are like us. And small businesses employ about 60% of the UK's employees.

We have to comply with the same regulations as Tesco, but we can't afford an extra person to fill in government forms, because C is the person asking for three quotes for materials and organising travel and accommodation for any one working offsite, and the pension contributions, and sending figures to the accountant, and answering the phone, and, and, and.

Sorry for the essay, but DH is 70 soon, and had a massive cardiac at 50. He's still at work. We are still paying a significant sum in income tax, corporation tax and dividend tax every single year.

Please excuse my vitriol towards the people gaming the system for benefit payments for whom we are contributing £80k pa across various taxes. Not the really sick or disabled, just the idle, feckless and too anxious or depressed to get out of bed in the morning.

How many jobs do you do, or did you just “marry well”?

You can choose to better yourself!!!

To a degree, YES, I think it is. If you are not willing to do a bit extra to make yourself a more valued player, then you sink into the ordinary.

The problem a lot of high earners have is they did much lower stress jobs on the way up and worked hard to get past them for the money, taking on extra stress to do it. If the money isn't there why would they take the stress?

We didn't come from money, nobody has given us wealth, and our inheritance is brown furniture. But we worked our backsides off.

...who exactly is 'we'? All rich people? What exactly are you saying here?

We're not 'rich'. We have enough to get by, but our income doesn't bracket us with wealthy. We are the squeezed middle of small businesses; we declare everything and are taxed on it all. But we have worked to create a modestly successful small company, and we are useful players in a market that is struggling to find competent people; we'd like it to continue after we retire.

@newbluesofa I explained it all quite carefully above. Please read my post before launching out at me!

We have enough to get by, but our income doesn't bracket us with wealthy.

Ok I'm not talking to you then?? I said high earners - if you just have enough to get by then that's not you so what are you arguing with me about?

I think what people mean is that they worked hard to get the qualifications and long hours to get to the point where they got the high earning job. It was definitely in my case - full time job plus studying and paying bills on my own. I cried over many failed exams, I was so depressed and worked bloody hard to qualify. Got jobs that meant a long commute just to get more experience. Once that was over, the job itself was challenging and I had more responsibility but nowhere as hard as ie my parents’ min wage jobs. But yeah I got very bitter about the fact that once I finally felt more comfortable financially at £50k point, the taxes doubled so I didn’t even feel much of the pay rise. It just feels that working hard isn’t rewarded in this country.

In most situations yes, of course. Well off people work hard and are determined.

I understand what you're saying but I have to say, when I referenced high earners in this post I didn't mean people on 50k. I come from a working class family (working, not benefits) and to me 50k is a high income so I get it. But I meant more on a society wide level high earners, like 150k, 200k plus. I should've made that more clear in my OP because a lot of people seem to think I'm talking about them and their middle management job and I'm not!

That’s what I used to think. I come from a very poor background but made myself not poor as I didn’t want to have struggles my parents had. However after a period of a bit of resentment towards my parents - why didn’t they do more to be more financially comfortable - I understood they had their limitations, they are pretty much incapable to do more as don’t see the opportunities. They definitely lack the drive and a positive attitude, too scared of failure. There are lots of people like that, just born with it (low IQ), lack of confidence, or maybe because of their upbringing, just accept their fate and don’t strive to achieve more in their life for various reasons. So I disagree, being poor isn’t always a choice

I urge you to read Hired by James Bloodworth to get an insight into the systems that are designed to keep poor people poor.

Probably because on the Chancellor's estimation of what makes you "rich" we are quite close to it. We bought a lovely house well and quite cheap, we set up a SIPP when they were so new we had to explain the concept to our accountants and financial advisors. We were quick and crisp, and 25 years later, we're regarded as minted and entitled.

I notice that @newbluesofa hasn't really directly replied to my comment at 20:41. But again for clarity, yes, I do think it is quite possible that poverty is a choice. One that is forced on some but chosen by others.

I have literally quoted your comment at 20:41 what are you talking about

You've quoted it, but not said what you think in response