to be fed up of hearing 'I've worked hard for my money'

[newbluesofa]

Lots of chat on MN recently about taxes on high earners. So heard lots of 'we have this money because we work bloody hard for it' and honestly I'm sick of it and think the people who say it are selfish.

Nurses work incredibly hard, long shifts, difficult job. Carers provide absolutely essential service, again shift work, difficult hours, difficult job. Teachers provide essential work, I know multiple teachers and they all devote evenings, weekends, school holidays to the detriment of their own families. All of these jobs also have huge emotional tolls. So 'I've worked hard for my money' means nothing to me, because a lot of people work a lot harder for a lot less.

Why is it fair to pay proportionally more? What's fair about that? You could argue that is unfair, but for the greater good. But it isn't fair.
They should be pulling more weight, and they already are.

Of course he takes more. But we high earners pay significantly more tax. We're the ones funding things around here.

DH and I were lucky. Both from very working class backgrounds. To be born relatively clever. To be born in a time when Grammar School access was not determined by tuition. By having parents who valued education. By not having student loans. By having opportunities to get starter jobs and gain experience. By being able to take that to get better jobs and build a career. I have worked hard, but no harder than any one else though maybe I took more risks than some, by moving, changing job etc. I am grateful for the opportunities I have had in my life. I haven't sacrificed anything. Maybe if you need to work 100 hours a week to be a top lawyer or banker, well that's what you sign up for surely? It's not a sacrifice - it's a trade off. If you achieved it, then good for you, but please don't moan about it afterwards, how hard done by you are - it was an active decision you made to do that. If you benefited from UK education, healthcare, policing, rubbish collection etc etc, please just pay your fecking tax and appreciate that you are in a better position than 99% of the whole world! Any one who fucks off to Dubai to pay no tax and live off the benefit of slave labour and sex trafficking deserves nothing but contempt. I am currently abroad and paying more than 50% tax and SS. We plan to come back to UK where ironically I would pay LESS tax!

Some (not all) are self made and have created businesses that benefit the economy.

Broadest shoulders.

I think those with those shoulders could do with recognising that there are people who’s “shoulders” are collapsing beneath them, and less recognising how difficult it is having loads of money.

It’s harder at the bottom than it is at the top.

Finally!!! Some I information about YOU @PrawnsForDinner rather than your bloomin husband

I work hard and always have, but am paid less than the average wage, I have a degree, and have retrained, nothing has helped.
So they all pee me off

Well then why are they saying it. If everyone works hard then why say you work hard fir your money if not suggesting that your shedloads of money is because you work hard as opposed to all those feckless lazy people who have less than me

I know a lot of people, some work extremely hard, some work pretty hard, some work average, some a bit, and some not at all. Some people are motivated by money and go into chosen professions and careers as a result. Some are rewarded by other things that motivate them - working with animals, children, caring, creative etc. and this influences their career choices. Nothing in life is fair and nothing is equal but it’s simply not true to say everyone works hard.

I agree. But I still think it's important not to conflate extreme outliers with the sort of people OP is criticizing. It's a whole different issue.

Yes, those people work hard too and is theirs choices. However, this is about having to pay taxes to subsidise benefit street or repay debt. Tax,tax, tax everything that moves and nothing improve.

I don't know why you think they don't recognize that. One person having more money isn't the cause of someone else having less money. We're not a communist society. They have the broadest shoulders, they are already carrying the heavier load. They are allowed to have opinions on it just as much as anyone else is. They pay it whether they like it or not, they don't have to be delighted by it too.

Pause to insert (an old) joke...

Two women are talking over coffee.
One asks, "How much does your husband earn in a year?"
Her friend replies, "£250,000"
The first one says, "What!!"
The other says, "Well, he does work for Cunard"

The first woman replies, "Well my husband works fekkin' hard as well but he doesn't earn that much"

I think the PP was just giving an example, not suggesting that teachers and nurses are the only people in that position.

@Forgetmenot9 Thank you for saying this kind thing about me 💜

I don't know what I expected except just exactly what you said, tbh! That "you can earn more based on unique skills where the value of those is determined by employers/ the market/ clients". So, some people earn more than others based on things other than hard work, or even the extent of responsibility they have.

Not sure about the "we do live in society where opportunities are available" bit though. Just - maybe I'm wrong or just blinkered or something - but I genuinely struggle to see what opportunities were or even are available for my brothers, even though they're both clever, hardworking, skilled, and responsible, and friendly and presentable and all of that.

And separately (not just responding to you any more, but would be curious for your thoughts @Forgetmenot9 !), I think it's harder for women to have good careers if we have kids - people here talking about really sad sacrifices losses etc. But that's kind of compounded the difficulties for DB1. He's married to an amazing woman, but her career stalled after babies. So he's the higher earner of the two, and that's like a hard limit on their financial prospects. Whereas my career also stalled after I had my kids, but my DH had all these opportunities growing up which mean he earns more than my brothers ever will, and hasn't reached the top of his earning potential yet.

Maybe it's just - that's the way it is. But it makes me sad and honestly sometimes a bit guilty, that I kind of escaped the trap because I'm a woman, and they're stuck because they're men who had shitty starts in life?

We already pay enough tax as it is. How is it "selfish" to want to keep more of your own money? I'm not an anarchist or believe everything should be privatised.

I generally believe in lowish taxes, and a free market that reward skill and hard work.

I think it says something about you morally if you can’t see the benefit of paying more in to a system that supports vulnerable people.

I had hoped Labour would bring us closer together. They’ve divided us further.

Unfortunately some people are convinced that those with the most money are the most capable. But that assumes that everyone has a primary objective of earning as much money as possible.

It is incomprehensible to those people that there are intelligent and hard working people who aim to make a positive difference to the world, or enjoy their work etc in the first instance. And actually, often these people have a bigger impact on the lives of those around them. Again written off as a minor achievement by those motivated by money.

I was a teacher , then senior leader and now senior management/ work transformation contracts in local authority (turning around failing services essentially). My current job is less physically and mentally taxing than when I was teaching. Plenty of my former teaching colleagues are more than capable of doing what I do but are passionate about teaching and being in school. I earn (just) over the magic 100k that people bang on about here. I think many teachers (especially those with teaching and management responsibilities combined in school) work far harder and deal with more complex situations. The hardest job I have ever had was being a SENCO whilst having a class teaching responsibility. It was brutal.

We value the wrong things at times.

I am lucky to earn what I do, I'm capable and committed but there have definitely been 'right time, right place' moments in my career. But I'm definitely not more deserving of that salary than any of my lower paid teaching colleagues.

I don't agree. Yes, there are some lazy people around but there are plenty of people who work really hard and don't get huge financial rewards. Some industries pay far more than others. People have different skills and aptitudes. Some people work hard for other rewards - acclaim, appreciation, altruism, creativity etc. We tend to see wealth as a sign of success but it's not the only measure, nor is it the most important one

If you're at the bottom and need temporary support I totally understand because of a really horrible life situation that you need government support I understand. But after that, okay you have money from the government to live off. Come up with a plan and a goal to get yourself into a better financial position. Get a job, work at that. Make a plan to get better skilled and try and find a better one.

I totally understand that for the disabled it's a totally different situation. But for those who aren't. Maybe if you're at the bottom why not try and come to the top instead of bringing others down.

I don't know any specifics on your brothers and frankly now the economy isn't in a good place. I don't know your brother's, and nothing is easy or guaranteed, but apprenticeships might be a good opportunity? I changed careers midlife, it was hard and demoralising but I just kept going and it's worked out.

My career stalled after kids too, I can only talk for myself but this was down to my choices. I wasn't able to put in what I could before. I'm now finding the workplace far friendlier and understanding to parents. I work with lots of talented Mums who are on great trajectories.

I suspect you've nailed it. I quite often say, to justify my good fortune, that I was clever and well educated, and that DH was a clever dyslexic who learned a trade and saw a niche. I earned a lot from the minute I went freelance because I was the go to person in my field. What I earned then, paid our overheads for six or seven years, maybe plus a bit and some for extras but it gave DH space and income to build an enterprise without any family support. So when I had our only child at 43, I worked about 50% of capacity, with a nanny, which actually turned out to be insufficient to compensate for my age. So my career cratered just before 50.

But happily, DH's little bespoke engineering enterprise that he had time to build and develop is still going, and still looking after five families. Nobody is earning huge spondulicks; we take about 35% more than our lowest paid person. But EVERYBODY who works with/for us is paid properly (there's nobody earning NMW) and everyone shares a part of the profit in the good times.

When the work stops, WE (just us) stop taking anything out of the business so everyone else gets paid. Not rich, and probably not even very successful if measured against lawyers and doctors or merchant bankers in wealth terms, but a very gentle version of success that we can justify that has made us modestly prosperous. I can live with this which is close to my version of success. I don't aspire to great wealth, but I want to eat well and have nice clothes. Holidays are a bit of a bust because DH's cardiology meds keep him out of the sun. Scotland here we come!

A free market doesn't reward skill, it rewards profit.

Nursing (in the NHS) doesn't provide a profit. So it's not well paid. Higher skill does not equate to higher pay. Capitalism/free market only rewards profit. Not sure how you can be in favour of that and yet say you don't think everything should be privatised? That's what a free market encourages. Everything to trade, everything for profit.

I know plenty of teachers, carers and nurses who do not, at all, work hard for their money. & whilst most people believe these professions are underpaid their salaries are a dream for other people. So where does it end?