To think free birthing should be entirely banned

[StandFirm]

I have come across this article earlier which made me feel so very angry at the cynical extremists who brainwashed a mum into an entirely avoidable tragedy: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/nov/22/free-birth-society-linked-to-babies-deaths-investigation
If I'd listened to similar cretins, I would have died in childbirth aged 19 and none of my three DCs would have been born alive or at the very least without severe disabilities. 'Pearls of wisdom' which gave me the rage include:
-ultrasounds are not safe
-women’s “bodies do not grow babies that we cannot birth”
Such ignorant perfidious lies. I hope the cult leader gets sent down for a very long time. That poor little child was robbed of a healthy body and many more actually died. I really hate the internet's ability to spawn dangerous cults entirely unchecked.

So one in twenty die? And if you’re going all natural you may well have eleven kids like one of the internet quacks mentioned in the link.

5% death rate is a lot ! In england and wales there are around 600 000 birth a year, so that would be 30 000 women dying each year.
Not a stretch to think quite a few of those would be mumsnetters.

In the US (where these crazy free birthers originate) there were 3.6 million births in 2023 so 5% of the mothers dying would be 180 000 women.

Yes giving birth is a natural process but nature is cruel.

Actually some people do give birth to breech babies without intervention. I have seen videos of it and also saw a video on fb recently where someone called 999 because her friend was in labour and the babies feet came out first. The ambulance was on its way but the call handler was telling her to tell her friend to squat and what to do and she gave birth to the baby safely before the ambulance arrived.

I was in a MLU as well. But the nearest consultant unit was an ambulance ride away. So basically same as home birth as far as that concerned but far more facilities like birthing pools etc in every room. There was another MLU in another hospital ( in main building) but nowhere near as good. Much less homely feel ( one of my DGC born there)

Actually, that 95% survival figure seems to be an underestimate. More like 98%, according to the Cambridge University study in the link.

https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/09/19/childbirth-in-the-past/

Trouble is because of this " breech baby have a CS " culture many midwives are losing the skills of delivering them so can't even be guaranteed that the MWs know what to do now

My friend gave birth to twins. The first one she caught in her skirt making her way out of house to hospital ( Jan in Scotland as well lol) and 2nd one vaginal birth of breech baby as they threatened CS but no time as only just got to the hospital

We’re still talking about a 1/50 chance of death compared to more like 1/8000 chance in the UK in recent years https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/maternal-deaths-rising-in-uk-despite-fewer-births-official-figures-show
We’re 160 times less likely to die in childbirth today than in the era of a 98% survival rate.

Yeah I do think they are usually separate. I think we were lucky that the MLU was on the ground floor and hospital above. So could try the water birth vibe. Then get rushed upstairs when it all went wrong. They did let me have my own room for the night afterwards as I’d tried in the MLU for 40 hours! So that was a bonus.

Statistically home births are as safe, in some ways safer, than hospital births. The rates of infant and maternal injury and mortality has not reduced now women routinely birth in hospital. Midwives at home births know when to recommend transferring to hospital, and a home birth kit includes various drugs etc if mum or baby need minor help. The cascade of unnecessary intervention often results in various injuries, hospital birth isn’t 100% ‘safe’

https://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/health/bedfordshire-nhs-trust-pays-out-over-ps20m-to-birth-injury-claims-since-2020-5357193

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-44357023.amp

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2364847/

arent they safer due to somewhat massaged statistics? Ie better outcomes fewer interventions because it is only offered/generally not advised against for predicted safe births which would have gone straightforwardly and minimal intervention anyway in the hospital

though obviously , it’s only a normal birth afterwards

I avoided the hospital based MLU on purpose. What I didn't want is giving birth in that hospital. From the unit I was in IF id needed to be transferred I'd have gone to a different hospital

Pretty rubbish if you're one of the 5%. Except these free birthing gurus seem to believe ( and sell the belief) that nobody will fall into that 5%.
My grandson did and without medical
intervention during his birth (bearing in mind he'd died 48 hours prior) my DIL would have died too. Fortunately she snapped out of the cult like beliefs at the point she discovered he'd died inside her.

He would not have died had she listened to the doctors and midwives at the hospital and not her Free Birthing obsessed Doula.

But I see now she had a MH issue which is why she clung to the conspiracy theories and myths (as that's what they were) and ignored everyone. Even her own sister who is a midwife.

But why are you arguing about death rates and such? The OP question is should freebirth be banned.

Nobody is saying that there should never be any medical intervention in any birth. Its nice to be able to call on it, if you choose to do so. That choice must always remain with the woman.

What I am saying is that childbirth is far more survivable without intervention than, say, peritonitis.

Do you think that women should have forced medical intervention just because they are pregnant?

No birth is guaranteed 100% safe though.
That's the point.
It's still one of the most dangerous things. Woman can go through.

I think women should be strongly encouraged to take up antenatal care in pregnancy - which is largely about spotting and treating/reacting to potential issues before they occur. Lots of it is minimally invasive too and women should have the right to say no to parts of it they don’t want.
I don’t think free birthing should be made illegal but I do think selling free birthing should be illegal. I think the option of midwife attended homebirth is a good thing where the care available and the pregnant woman’s health and medical history suggest she is a good low-risk candidate and there’s the backup option of hospital if things go wrong.
And I still think your use of statistics is poor and doesn’t really support your points.

The first Radical Birth Keeper (RBK) school opened in 2020 and, despite its $<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210111061626/www.freebirthsocietycourses.com/radicalbirthkeeper/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">6,000 cost, sold out. Over the next five years, it would train more than 850 “authentic midwives” from every continent. In 2024, Saldaya and Norris-Clark went one step further, launching the MatriBirth Midwifery Institute (MMI), a $12,000, year-long “gold-standard online intensive midwifery school”

This is what should have been banned, or at minimum the use of 'midwifery'in the name. It's a dangerous scam.

Well, yeah, they kind of like preventing babies from sustaining brain damage or internal decapitation where possible.

The statistics I linked to came from Cambridge University.

Take it up with them if you don't like it.

No, I’m not saying the statistics are wrong, just that you’re using them in a misleading way. Implying that free birthing is not really that dangerous because 95 or 98 percent of women survived childbirth without modern medical care is poor use of statistics because a 1/20 or 1/50 chance of death is exactly the same statistic but sounds much less safe.

I don’t think free birthing should be banned (although I think intentionally having a bree birth is deeply irresponsible).

But absolutely every person who watches a child born alive and struggling to breathe and does nothing to help, doesn’t resuscitate the baby, doesn’t call for help, doesn’t urge the mother to seek help should be held accountable for that babies death.

But 'sounds less safe' is misleading. Why wouldn't you quote a 19/20 or 49/50 chance of survival? That 'sounds much better' and is still the same odds.

It's interesting because I was having a conversation about gambling with some of the ladies at work. I asked them if there were 100 balls in a bag, 99 red and one black, would you choose one if the black ball kills you on the spot but a red ball gave you the mind and body you had when you were 20?

Only one of them said they would choose a ball, despite being almost certain to choose a red ball. These women were in their 60s.

What would you do in that circumstance (if you were in your 60s)?

I think its the misinformation here that is problematic rather than freebirth per se. And actually, there is a lot of misinformation provided to birthing people by medical professionals as well which leads to deaths of mothers and babies. It should all be better!

I don’t think comparing childbirth to an obviously imaginary fountain of youth vs poison scenario is helpful.
To answer your question about why say 1/20 die rather than a 95% survival rate - because we are talking live and death in a situation (childbirth) that probably a majority of women will experience in their lifetime. And because there is an alternative with much better odds available - accepting medical assistance.
I am also imaging this on a group level - like an antenatal class with 20 women. Or my high school year group with 150 girls in my year. Imagining 3-7 girls from school dying in childbirth or 1 woman in my antenatal class makes medical assistance feel more reasonable right?

Basically acceptable/good/poor odds is dependent on the situation. 95% fat free is a low fat yogurt, 95% chance of survival 5 years after diagnosis with a certain type of cancer gives justified hope to patients. 95% chance of not dying when free birthing is a poor decision / should be illegal to promote.

Can’t believe anyone would have a baby outside a large (preferably teaching) hospital. My daughter was almost convinced by midwives to have her baby at home (soft music and candles etc) fortunately I convinced her to choose a hospital birth - thank goodness as both would most likely have died.
Of course some give birth with no problem (I did in hospital) but things often don’t go according to plan and you have a better chance of living in a hospital situation.