To think free birthing should be entirely banned

[StandFirm]

I have come across this article earlier which made me feel so very angry at the cynical extremists who brainwashed a mum into an entirely avoidable tragedy: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/nov/22/free-birth-society-linked-to-babies-deaths-investigation
If I'd listened to similar cretins, I would have died in childbirth aged 19 and none of my three DCs would have been born alive or at the very least without severe disabilities. 'Pearls of wisdom' which gave me the rage include:
-ultrasounds are not safe
-women’s “bodies do not grow babies that we cannot birth”
Such ignorant perfidious lies. I hope the cult leader gets sent down for a very long time. That poor little child was robbed of a healthy body and many more actually died. I really hate the internet's ability to spawn dangerous cults entirely unchecked.

Yes and its NHS. Unfortunately I think they've closed it this year HOWEVER it was never publicicised by the GPs or the community midwives when booking it. You had to be pro active to get in and ring them direct. Although with everybody on the Internet these days far more people are aware. I assume the Braintree unit its moved to is similat

Need more places like that

If you go back far enough, third of women used to die in childbirth!

Basically our huge heads are difficult to birth - but mother nature decided a 2/3 birth success rate is worth the increased intelligence. Which is probably is, but doesn't mean birth without any medical intervention isn't super risky

I get so frustrated that home births get brought into these discussions, it is nowhere near the same thing

free birthing in my view is a mad choice, there are so many variables in childbirth and I just can’t understand how a woman wouldn’t want medical assistance on hand

home birthing is simply choosing the right environment to give birth in, with medically trained professionals there if you need them. I’d personally feel uneasy if a hospital wasn’t nearby but that’s my take

childbirth has been made into something that many women suffer and survive, a lot of us come away from it feeling powerless and violated. Dismissing home births as “you’re not putting your baby first because you want candles” just shits on a great option for those who don’t want an overly medicalised birth

Yes, lots of misogyny in the 'you just want candles' view.

I would not be surprised if there were some crossover between the ‘it’s Godswill’ ultra Christian right and the Freebirth influencers. There’s a whiff of eugenics about it.

I think informed consent is very difficult in childbirth, as in the moment you are often so addled with pain and exhaustion you can’t make a clear decision . And the risks of making a wrong decisions are so high it is better to err on the side of caution and intervene , and sometimes to intervene drastically. The benefit of hindsight only comes after, and you never know how your own scenario might have played out

And? Probably because most births are in hospital. And those with complications seen during later stages of pregnancy have a hospital birth.
My grandson died because my DIL fell down the Free Birthing rabbit hole. Encouraged by a local Doula (unqualified in anything medical). This was just over a year ago.

My son went along with the theories but late in the pregnancy the Free Birthing Cult like mantras she came out with had us challenging them. The main one was that hospitals purposely do 'terrible procedures' during births that cause harm.
The Doula promised that her birth would be pain free and she would orgasm at the point of delivery. Other really deluded ideas as well.
She is a highly intelligent , educated woman but something about the cult of FB just caught her. I do call it a cult as that's exactly what it felt like to us as we were all prevented from challenging any if the theories and shut down.

This was a much longed for first pregnancy (after several miscarriages and failed rounds of IVF) and she was 41.

Baby was breech. We pleaded for her to go to hospital as it was also 2 weeks overdue.

They did go.

They were advised to stay as baby was at risk. I believe she was recommended a C Section.

She left after speaking to the Doula who convinced her she could still Free Birth at home. None of us knew this at the time.

Over the following 48hours, he died inside her. The local midwife had been involved overseeing her care (as much as they would let her) and she came to monitor the heartbeat. It was no longer beating.

She was then admitted, refused the recommended C Section again and chose to go through an induced labour delivering a dead child 16 hours later.

The trauma of this had been huge and they both have had therapy to untangle all the awful feelings and 'what if' emotions that came after. I don't think they'll get over it.

I am involved with local wellness things and this Doula was infiltrating them and peddling very dangerous theories. Fortunately we live in a small town and she was removedfrom local baby groups/ pregnancy sessions/ social media groups etc.

They paid her several thousand £ and she never even sent condolences to them afterwards saying that it was 'their journey' and she wasn't responsible for any of their decisions despite her being a the key influence right up to the last minute.

I would just like to say that for every woman who just 'pops one out' there is another who can have complications that can risk both mother and child.

I had a home birth back in 1994 and it was fine. But that was just me.

I do understand what you're saying but I really think this is a slippery slope. Women can't properly consent while in pain so should have the 'right' decisions made for them? How much pain is too much? Who makes the decisions?

I also think you underestimate women a bit here. Even in excruciating pain, most of us make massive sacrificing decisions for our babies. My epidural started to wear off in my c-section, it was really clear my child was going to die if they didn't get out immediately, so I chose not to say anything in case it slowed the delivery down leading me to faint on the table. Ok, that was clearly the 'wrong' decision but most mothers will do absolutely anything to make sure their baby is delivered safely. I don't think women are refusing interventions because they are putting themselves first while in pain.

I am so very sorry for your loss @Lifeislove.

Not trusting women to make their own decisions in childbirth because they are in pain is clearly more about not trusting that women can make their own decisions since childbirth isn't the only thing that can be painful and yet other people are allowed to make their own decisions when they are in pain.

Why should it be any different with childbirth?

I meant that whilst you are in pain you can’t think as clearly, or remember your decision making progress
You hear a lot about women going in to labour with a clear view about no pain relief, (because natural is better) or only gas and air, and then going for an epidural (I was in that second camp) and then it hits, and people afterwards feel ‘coerced’ and then You get cases where you end up needing an episiotomy or forceps or a c/section and they say it and you are so addled you say sure fine whatever , and later regret it even though it was the right thing. And then you get people who are loopy with pain and try and refuse everything

ive had one friend die from having her baby (she bled to death, even in the 21st century it happens) and of the four home births I know from friends there are only three babies . I had a C-section after a long labour and it was the right thing to do, but it was possibly one of the worst and longest days of my life

100%

It would not have gone so well if she'd for example chosen to follow someone like Belle Gibson and told her consultant to eff off.

People do this and they absolutely have every right to .
It would be abhorrent to criminalise it.

I do not advocate banning home births. 'Free birthing' is something else, though, encouraging women (who may have financial reasons for their choice in the US) to give birth without anyone there who knows about childbirth e.g. a trained and experienced midwife. That is dangerous. Women who have themselves given birth do not necessarily understand or recognise symptoms that are a danger to life and require medical help because they have only their own experience to go on. A home birth, however, with a trained midwife and the knowledge that outside help is within call very quickly, is ok by me - I wouldn't choose it but my step-GD was born at home with no problems at all. On the other hand, ex-DDiL nearly died in childbirth and would have done so had she chosen 'free birthing' - she was not considered a candidate for home birth (which proved to be the correct decision) - because she would have bled to death.
I would probably have died of pre-eclampsia.

Well, you could say the same about healthcare generally. That's doesn't mean we're not better off as a society with it.

Giving birth without help is dangerous because giving birth is dangerous. Why do women not understand this? Women used to routinely die in childbirth, of pre-eclampsia, obstructed birth, post-partum bleeding and retained placentas (this killed Mary Wollestonecraft, for example). One should not tell one's obstetrician to 'ef off' - there are two lives at stake not one, and no-one has the right to make a dangerous choice for someone else. Also to consider is that home birth (which is fine) relies on the mothers who choose it being safe to do so. Choosing to ignore advice and then needing emergency help could very well compromise some other woman's care.

This is true when looking at the species as a whole but many women died then who don’t now. I had to have an emergency section. Not sure what would have become of me if this was hundreds of years ago.

This article reminded me of something that happened in the early years of Mumsnet. I can't remember the specific details but a MNetter was pregnant with twins, the medical professionals wanted her to have a planned caesarian, she was reluctant and started a thread and many posters encouraged her not to have it.

Her husband came back on some time later to say that one of the babies had died due to complications during the birth...

I was shocked at what had happened. A stark warning about the dangers of taking advice from randoms online rather than medics.

That's fine. Women should be listened to. However, uninformed choice, or choice made out of a belief that childbirth is natural and a woman can go it alone and be empowered (awful word) are both dangerous. Childbirth kills. That's something to bear in mind.
And intervention is sometimes needed. Most of the women involved in the NHS scandals were not asking to be left unmedicated, they were begging for intervention before either they or their baby became very ill or died.

The Free Birthing concept and choosing a Home Birth with limited intervention unless necessary with a trained midwife are 2 completely different methods.
The whole point of the Free Birth is not to intervene at all. Not even when it's clear something is not right (as what happened with my DiL).

Except pregnant women absolutely have that right because until birth, a foetus doesn't have the same rights as a born baby.

Pregnant women can drink alcohol during pregnancy
Pregnant women can smoke during pregnancy
Pregnant women can do extreme, risky sports during pregnancy
Pregnant women can decline tests during pregnancy
Pregnant women can decline a c-section
Pregnant women can decline an induction

Ultimately, it is their body and healthcare providers need consent and can't take that away from a woman just because they are pregnant.

Or you could have an alive baby that's healthy and be alive yourself. Your choice as a woman. Some choices are foolish and we should not make them. Life is not all about making choices based on body autonomy - which we don't have. Indeed, making the assumption life is all about making choices is also wrong. It's not, sometimes (often) it's about doing what we must not what we want.

Some choices are foolish but people are still entitled to make those choices, especially when it involves their body and healthcare.

We absolutely have body autonomy during healthcare and that shouldn't change based on the sex of the person or because they happen to be pregnant.

Ultimately this is what it comes down to.

I voted yanbu. However, i havr a couple of friends who genuinely didnt make it to the bospital in time. Wouldnt want some loon trying to prosecute them over the details of how they handled the labour..