To think a lot of career success is down to luck over judgement

[SadlyNotATroll]

Was having an interesting chat with friends today about life and careers. We were split down the middle on the issue of whether a “successful” career is down to working hard or sort of being in the right place at the right time. I think the latter. I got an average degree and took the first job I was offered out of uni; 6 months later promoted and then quickly again because management liked me and the business happened to be in an area that was receiving a lot of traction. I’m now very successful in my field even though I don’t feel I really “earned” it by working hard and being strategic. Similarly my dad got a job because he sat next to a man on the train, got chatting and this bloke saw something in him and it skyrocketed his career.

On the other hand my friends husband has the worst luck with jobs, redundancies, etc. which means he isn’t where he would like to be through no fault of his own.

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts!

I think luck and personality/ability to get on with people (including unpleasant ones) play a large part.

Agree totally

I work in the public sector. They bleat about diversity but the highest level of management is 5/6ths white men. The next level down is a mix of white men and women. No one with disabilities or differences. It'll take a huge culture shift before I reach senior level.

Both!

I read law, but getting my training contract at a top firm was a “sliding doors” moment as I had originally been declined an interview but then was offered a last minute interview when someone else couldn’t make it & I was able to jump on a train at short notice. So hard work plus a degree of luck.

Current job I took because a previous job hadn’t worked out (bad manager). I didn’t really want to take my current job and hated my first few weeks there but had no other option. It’s turned largely great (although I’m currently considering my options, but I have been there over 10 years)

Thinking about the successful people I know, they’ve been pretty focused on their careers (made the right moves, worked very hard, chosen certain fields etc).

So while some things are right place, right time - it’s attitude and focus on the goal tbh.

I am now in my fifties and have seen enough change to think that a lot of it does come down to luck. Early on in a career this can seem self-evident, so good choices and hard work lead to success. But later on, when you have seen the effect of technological change on certain industries and the impact of wider economic upturns and downturns on all sectors, you realise that much of it is down to chance.

Obsolete roles - there used to be entire magazines handed out at Tube stations advertising secretarial vacancies in London. It used to be a starter-route into any sector that you cared to imagine, with the prospect of some really quite good salaries in finance or law. Most of those roles have now gone.

Graduating into a recession - research has shown that if you graduate into an economic downturn then that has a lifetime impact on earnings.

Political cycles - if you work in the public sector or an industry that supplies the public sector then your career can be severely affected by the prevailing political climate. Conservative small-state or Labour public spending boost...

Huge variance within professional fields - it is not news that solicitors at the top firms earn more than high street solicitors. But even in large firms the charge-out rate and salary variation between solicitors in different teams/specialisms can be quite significant. A decision made 20+ years ago can mean the difference between a reasonably-good and a startlingly-good salary.

I have had good luck at times, such as joining my previous profession at a time when there was increasing investment into training and CPD. I have also had bad luck, such as wanting to return after maternity leave at a time when austerity hit and roles were being cut back. Probably my worst stroke of luck was a really good employer (where I had been for 5+ years) deciding to relocate to a place that made my daily commute un-manageable. It was a couple of years before Covid and had I known that wfh was going to be on the horizon I would probably have hung on...never mind!

I am now in a field with a huge amount of competition for roles and it leaves you with no illusion that success is down to your own brilliance!

The podcaster / multi-millionaire entrepreneur Scott Galloway has a great quote about what it takes to be successful:

”It’s down to how much shit you can eat”

Basically, how well can you put up with diabolical people?

You can be lin the right place at the right time. You can be unlucky and made redundant. I think a good work ethic ability to problem solve and work as a team are more important.

I think a lot of it is luck, but luck can be helped along by having good judgement.

You can't know they don't have disabilities?

I am quite senior in management and noone other than my few closest colleagues and HR etc know about my disability - it's quite severe but doesn't really have any visible symptoms

ETA - I take you point about the lack of other diversity though

Hmm a mix of both I guess. Yes you could be in the right place at the right time for a specific career boost - but because you’ve had the judgement to change jobs to the right company or to speak to the right people.

I do think most of it comes down to personality and the ability to talk to other people. I worked in accountancy for a long time and it’s interesting when you look at partners, most are people people rather than being super technically able as you might expect.

I think there’s a tonne of luck involved in it, and I include things like ‘not having to pay a motherhood penalty or having a disability or visible difference’ in the ‘luck’.

But once you’ve got the luck, it’s also about being able to use it: to eat shit as a pp said, or to get along within a prevailing culture. I know one person whose outlook on life is such that they have wasted their luck on just being a right moaner who people don’t want to be around, for example. Their luck tends to run out. Mine - honestly - goes a bit further because I’m better at playing the game, fitting in and being a radiator rather than a drain.

That doesn’t mean I don’t agree with your basic premise though!

Bit of both, but a lot of the successful people I know have strategised their next move well rather than necessarily ‘done a great job’. 5 years ago I went on my first mat leave in a great career position. Now I’m better paid but in a dead end role in an industry that’s being decimated by AI. I’ll try find a solution, but the people I know who are managing it better, started planning 3 years ago and have got themselves prepared to push through.

It's interesting some people are conflating success simply with salary.

For me success is having a job that pays enough to have a good life but also allows you the time and flexibility to have a good life and is also enjoyable/rewarding

By that measure I feel successful and I would say that luck certainly played a part. So did being very hard working. But also, being clear what I wanted from my career helped me really focus. But yeah, luck (good and bad) has a part. Bad luck from health battles but also definitely some "in the right place at the right time" luck

I've also seen people who are relentlessly rubbish at their job but somehow fall upwards and I am never sure whether that is luck or something more nefarious

I graduated in 2007 and of course a year later was the 2008 crash. It's definitely affected my career path. I was also unlucky enough to be made redundant 3 days before COVID lockdown after 12 years in a career in fashion retail buying - which has never really recovered as an industry. I've sidestepped into something else but I had to start at the relative bottom in my 30s.

My DH has been much more strategic so as a household we do pretty well but I do have concerns about being in my 40s without a clear way forward. That said - my work-life balance and stress levels are excellent!

The harder I work, the luckier I get.

It's the same in law. Some partners are very brilliant technically but you also get wildly incompetent partners who bring in heaps of clients (and in an idea world, but not always, have the sense to let bright juniors do all the technical work)

I’m private sector so might be different, but I’m female, in my 40s, no university degree, blind in one eye and was morbidly obese till this year, I was raised in a working class family.

I’m part of the senior leadership team of a Global organisation with around 10,000 employees, our Board of Trustees and C-Suite are about equal male and female and have members from a diverse range of backgrounds, our CEO is female.

Yes, the business world is weighted towards rich white men, but it absolutely is possible to gain success despite that.

I have been ‘lucky’ enough to be promoted on a number of occasions, but that’s because I make damn sure that I perform highly, that I understand the strategic goals of the company I’m working in and drive my teams towards meeting them, that I keep myself up to date on relevant skills and that where I see problems I find solutions. I’ve been placed at risk of redundancy 5 times because my roles were restructured and each time I used the opportunity to find or create an alternative role within the company that saw me moving up a rung in the ladder.

I think that sometimes people fail to see and grasp opportunities, or wait for opportunities to be offered to them when they should be seeking them out.

Bit of luck, bit of preparation, bit of seizing opportunities. Being able to get on with people helps. Taking the odd risk- jumping ship for more money, moving location, helps. For women with children, having a decent partner helps (part luck, part judgement).

I've been really helped in my career by people giving me opportunities or recommending me for roles. I do the same for younger staff, but I won't do it for people who are a pita to work with.

@BadSkiingMum such a comprehensive answer!
also agree with @Crushed23

As someone who has been reasonably successful I think I'd summarise my career as a combo of hard work/talent, luck and eating shit!

I remember starting the job that changed my career.
My first day was a monday, my new boss said "the markets are under-reporting on x client. We know we've spent £100m but $60m is missing and the auditor is coming monday. Can you sort it for next monday?" And then got. On. A. Plane. Just fucked off and left me to it on day 1... good times...
His ghast was flabbered when i actually "found" the money and signed it off with an excellent "scorec the auditors in the first month of my employement.
How did i do it? I ate shit...
I ate shit from local market teams, i ate shit from global client, i ate shit from auditors and especially from our asshole clients.
The reason I was good was i solved peoples problems....

Then luck came along, one of the big boys got an offer he couldnt refuse and quit and the global head was a bit stuck and bada bing bada boom... i got a 25k pay bump and fancy title

Luck 100% plays a part.

And yes, I definitely agree about seeking opportunities out. I have noticed some people expect to be handed opportunities or L&D instead of making it happen for themselves.

I actually think many of the successful people i know strategically manage their careers. Move jobs roughly every two years, build and impressive cv, slogg at the networking. Work hard at getting every step up the ladder.

I'm always surprised how many people on mumsnet seem to think job offers are made randomly to people who happen to be in right place or that they should be promoted first because they've been there longest.

So much of it is down to opportunity and living in a functional state with healthy institutions. There must be so many wonderfully hard working and talented people in Haiti, Gaza or Sudan, but what are their chances of excelling in a career?

I would say working hard and making good impressions so that when you are in the right place at the right time, it all comes together. And being able to get on with difficult people is definitely a factor!

Hmmmm i am not so sure...

I will make about 200-220k this year (so quite "successful") and honestly there has been very very little strategy.

Many of my friends (who make 100k+) are similar... we fell into things.
Most of us only move jobs when the wind looks like it changing and then you find whats available / offered and you go for it amd hope for the best

For me, every time i tried to "plan my career" and go after X or work on project Y, when i got it/ did it, it back fired SPECTACULARLY so i consciously decided to give up and just "play it by ear" from about 2014....

Maybe its dependent on sector though....