To be irritated when family are way too passive??

[TopazQuartz]

Let me explain. I have a lot of extended family and I like seeing them but since 2 main characters have passed on, the rest of the family all seem to be jostling - not for top position, but it for the lowest!

It's like all family members are taking a step back and looking towards me to do stuff. So where I used to enjoy visiting them, now I find myself getting annoyed at them. I visited an uncle today who lived with one of the deceased and has reported being really lonely. You'd think he'd be grateful, but he just sat there watching tv and not talking. It seemed a bit passive aggressive. So I said did he want a drive out in the car to get some bits from the local shop and he said no, 'not worth going out if we're only going to the shop.' This irked me because it seemed like a hint that he wanted to be taken somewhere else but when I asked if there was anywhere he wanted to go he said 'no.' So I told him I'm not really sure if he wants to go out or not and he said 'I will if you want me to.' I said 'look I just want to know did you want to come or not or is there anywhere else you'd like to go.' And his reply, 'I don't mind.'

So we were going around in circles and I got annoyed and said 'look, I'm going to the shop, I just want to know if you want to come or not or was there somewhere else you wanted to go?' And his reply 'I'll do anything you want.'

I am neurodivergent and I do take what people say as that they mean it. I hate people hinting. He seemed to be under the impression I wanted something but I was hinting at it (ie him coming out for the drive), I honestly couldn't care less one way or the other, I just wanted him to give a straight answer!

I won't bore everyone with the rest, but a few of them are behaving like this and I'm shocked tbh. I used to enjoy visiting these people but they don't seem to know what the hell they want and it seems they are just used to being directed. Visiting them has become boring because they seem sullen and seem to just be waiting to see what I'm offering (and a drive to the shop was not it clearly!)

You could say just encourage them to have more agency and freedom, but I honestly believe they don't want it. What's more, it's almost like a passive controlling of me. Because thinking about it, his first hint was going to the shop isn't 'enough' or isn't worth going out for. So I am supposed to suggest something more next time? Not my role, I have my own family and can't afford the petrol and it's not been offered before.

AIBU to think like this, this is just one example there are other relatives doing the same. Are there any writers or speakers that talk about this sort of thing, anyone know? I've never thought lack of assertion, lack of saying what you mean and passivity could be used as a power game, but it feels like it is being.

is he depressed? He seems very lacklustre and sorry you are having an uphill battle!! X

I thought about this after posting, I should have said, he and the others do not seem depressed when you are guessing what they want and trying to decipher their hints about stuff or when you are directing the visit and what to do. But I can't do that every time. Also worth saying the two that have passed away, it was 7 years ago now, I know that's still not long with bereavement, but I'm just trying to say it seems to have revealed a behavioural pattern that might have always been there but that I didn't see before when there were others more involved

Do you think they might be scared of you?

He’s using code.

which you clearly do understand (as you say he was Hinting that he wanted to go somewhere else not the shop) but you insisted on him saying so clearly which he wouldn’t do.

you’ve got a clash of communication styles here.

also people are rarely grateful for relatives visiting.

No. Am I missing something or was there something in what I posted that made you ask this? They've never been scared of me, I'm younger as well..

Yes I do understand it, I just find it very hard to cope with as my brain works differently and for a long time, many years of my life I didn't recognise it. It's taken a lot of work with a therapist to see certain patterns and now I recognise the pattern. Why not just say 'do you fancy going somewhere else?' or 'I could do with getting out for a while, would you mind if we drove to (wherever he was thinking)?'

This is the thing, I'm not an ogre, so it's puzzling.

When you say people are rarely grateful for visitors what do you mean? I prefer not to have them but I'm an introvert but these family members actually seem to see it as a requirement that I have to fulfill. Hence trying to get my head around it.

I know people like this and it’s utterly infuriating. YANBU.

I think all you can really do is place the ball kindly but firmly in their court.

”Uncle Jim, I like coming to see you but I want to come at times that are convenient for you. Pick up the phone and let me know when you would like another visit, OK? I’ll wait until I hear from you.”

“No worries Auntie Mary, if you don’t know what you want to for lunch, have a think and just let me know when you do decide”.
( you have to be prepared to follow through and potentially forego lunch!)

(Some) elderly people consider it a duty to spend time with family whether they like them or not.

my mother for example, believes that everyone should spend time with their parents regardless of the relationship or how they actually get on.

this person is lonely, presumably because they have lost their life partner. You are not a good substitute.

They don’t want to go out if it’s just the shop. They says that clearly. Beyond that they are recognising that you have put effort into visiting them and are therefore going along with your ideas as respecting that effort.

they do not however consider you someone they are emotionally intimate with and therefore your visits do not help make them feel less lonely.

your visits are a social obligation they feel required to meet but have no enthusiasm for.

if you genuinely care about them find something to do with them. If you don’t then visit less it’ll be less of a strain on you both.

Yes, that's what I'm doing. In the past I would have reacted with 'oh shall we go (somewhere much further away and way more interesting)?' to which I'd have got a straight reply 'yes ok.'

I can't keep doing it, it's expensive for one and I'm getting drained with having to lay on everything. I'd already visited and brought food. They couldn't even bring conversation.

I'd have more sympathy if it was a lack of skills but they converse when they want. The silences seem to be that they want something and I have got to try hard to find out what. I'm exhausted with it. I'm reasonable, just talk. I'm not likely to say no to suggestions. I just need more input and contribution on their part. It's like they don't want an equal adult to adult interaction, they want me in charge.

I'm not ND, and would be as stumped by this behaviour as you are.

I find the best way to deal with passive aggressive game players is to purposely take them at their word. So don’t stay stuck in an endless circular conversation about going out.

When he says “it’s not worth going out if it’s just to the shops” say “ok well I’ll be back in an hour with some shopping, do you want anything?” Then when he says “I don’t want anything from that shop/I don’t want to put you out,” or similar I’d say “ok, see you in an hour” and go out.

When it’s time to go say “Right I’m off,” and he says “I suppose. Do what you want.” You say “Let me know if you want me to pop round tomorrow/next week” and leave. Then hold the line and wait for him to message you.

Don’t wait for his blessing to do anything you will never get it, he’s a professional contrarian. He won’t make decisions eg on where to go because he doesn’t want the responsibility of getting it wrong, because if he chooses where you go, he can’t complain if he doesn’t like anything, and complaining is his favourite thing, even just in his head. He’s very manipulative. He wants you to waste endless mental energy playing pointless and draining games that you can’t win. Just stop playing and get on with whatever you need to do.

thanks it helps to know that as it helps me know what is and isn't just 'me'

Thankyou. I need the reality check. I'm not responding to hints much now but I'm getting looks as if I'm a horrible person. And it's true to say if this were someone who usually contributed, I'd not mind so much, but consistent deferring to me, not asking outright etc, it's too much (again because I think it's manipulation rather than a skills deficit, it may be that too but I think the manipulation is primary)

Does anyone write or podcast about this stuff, I am surrounded by it atm but can't find anything about these dynamics

Thankyou. Interesting you saying that they are going along with my ideas because they respect the effort I put in to see them. That's at least a positive.

It's not much to me though to visit, it's the lack of them putting any effort into those visits that bothers me. I know you think they'd probably rather I didn't, but they do text to say they have food and can make dinner if I am around, so they do want the visit, plus they drag it out when they know I'm trying to leave. So a bit of conversation or effort into their day would help. Also I've noticed I get this silent treatment if I've been unable to make a visit.

I'll try and verbalise things a bit more in the hope they will, remind them that I want to hear what they'd like to do, they don't need to leave it to me and that I'm not the boss, etc. It's a pleasure to visit them, not a bind. Or it could be lol.

I think that’s excellent advice from Darragon and the more you put that into practice the less stressed and confused you’ll be.

If it still rankles after seeing them, write it down and get it out of your system.

I'm also not ND as far as I know and would be stumped by this behaviour. I'd probably just stop visiting (because I generally try and avoid things I don't enjoy and just cope with the guilt instead!).

I think you’ve blown it up into a massive thing when it’s not. They probably just feel a bit lost post death and want to fit in with you. Just take them to a local cafe for a cup of tea and slice of cake. Small short cheap local activity which will enrich their week.

Sounds as if he wanted you to fork out for a meal somewhere - the way he spoke and handled your offer of going to the shop was rude and yes, I agree passive aggressive. You could explore whether or not he's depressed, but to be honest if the rest of them are like that then it's more likely to be an attitude problem. It sounds as if the main character who passed away was holding it together - they must have put up with some crap from those lot over the years! I would accept it'll never be the same and protect your peace. If they are rude and sullen, go low or no contact and concentrate on your immediate family.

As they can text you, could you try texting in advance to ask where they would like to go when you visit? Or if there is anything they would like to do when you come? How old are they?

can understand your frustration

I think you are thinking about this too much OP. How long are these visits? Days or hours?

He’s lost a life partner if I understand correctly. You don’t mention the dynamic before.

Things will be vastly different and it I might be he just wants you to visit for an hour.

As I see it, he answered the questions. He didn’t want to go to shop, he didn’t mind going anywhere, and would go anywhere you want (except a shop). The ‘not worth going/no point’ is defeatist and depression laden.

He does sound depressed. Just go, cut your visits shorter. Ask home if he wants to go anywhere. If he says no or I don’t mind say “ok we’ll stay here but let me know if you want to go out. I’m going at 3pm if we don’t go out” then sit have some food in companionable silence.

as people age they want to do less too and maybe what you used to was to appease another person. Now he just want to be at home - probably depressed.

My sisters OH is the king of passive aggressive martyrdom. He used to be terrible with me particularly when we first met. I was early 20s, he was mid 30s.

There were constant heavy sighs and "Oh, I'd do that thing for you if you were more grateful... I'd take you to X thing again if you looked like you enjoyed it more... Remember when I did X for you? You should be nicer and more grateful to me."
All really bizarre things.

It came to a head not long before I turned 30, when I expressed to my sister that I might buy myself an ipad for my birthday. That information got back to her OH, who said I could have his current ipad when he upgraded at some point.
It never got mentioned again. The months passed, I hadn't heard anything about him upgrading his ipad, so when my birthday hit, I went out and bought myself one. I told my sister I'd got one, but not him.
I knew he'd be fuming, because he loved to hold things over my head. I knew if I had his old ipad, for the next 20 years he'd go "Remember how nice I was to give you my ipad? Now do X for me."
A couple of silent months passed, then I heard via my sister that he'd got in a huff and given the ipad to the daughter of a friend of his. I then got an email from him saying how annoyed he was that I was so ungrateful (for what exactly??), and that he'd have given me the ipad if I'd "been nicer" and if I'd "let him and sister have the larger bedroom the last time we were all at your mums house together." What??!

Needless to say, we were done after that. I've never let him take me anywhere, do me any favours, or treat me to anything. Any required gifts (ie: Christmas) are small and cursory. 2 Christmases ago he didn't even bother getting me anything, despite me getting him something!
The whole ipad saga was over 10 years ago now, and now our relationship is polite but formal. I never initiate any dialogue with him, ever. Any face to face meetings I'm deliberately bland and give nothing away. I make a point to make sure I'm never sat with him at family meals.

My best advice to you OP, is just drop your end of the rope. Stop trying so hard.

This
I gave up ‘duty’ visits many years ago… no body died .. well maybe a few, but my visits wouldn’t have made any difference.
Live your own life to best of your ability
Thats the real gift to give.

This is absolutely the best way, breezy “okay no worries” type stuff
instead of feeding their weird ways.

If its hard work, and things dont flow, and your not getting anything out of it, dont bother and see if he gets in touch with you?