To think most modern dating advice is just emotional manipulation with a pretty bow?

[HonestRiskFinch]

“Play hard to get,” “mirror his energy”, “don’t text first.” It’s all strategy and ego management, not connection. AIBU to think honesty and directness are now seen as weakness?

Dating was less complex when I was young because multi dating was unacceptable. All I know is that when men really adore you there is never any doubt.

I do think the majority of women in dating want relationships whereas some men want relationships and some just want sex. Some women will just want sex but the numbers are very unbalanced. I worked in a male dominated environment for almost 7 years. I always remember a guy saying some women are for dating and some are for marrying. I kept my ears open in that place, I was in plain sight and heard a lot. These were not poorly educated men either.

Its complete sexist claptrap of course but perversely it is quite useful if (as many women are) you are a romantic or a people pleaser who gives far top much of yourself.

So many women sadly are raised to believe that finding a man to find them attractive/sleep with them/marry them that they often define themselves through this and will therefore prioritise this over everything else. So they allow themselves to be endlessly manipulated by blokes until they learn to say no.

So while I find it very distasteful I can see it has a certain efficacy as a way of stopping people leaving themselves open to this manipulation.

I suppose. Grim, though. My only piece of ‘dating advice’ is that the question to keep asking yourself is not ‘Does he like me?’ but ‘Is this working for me?’

You’re completely right and that’s what women should be asking themselves. Unfortunately society conspires to make them constantly question whether they are “good enough”. Very often they are asking the wrong question. It should be “is he good enough?”.

I recently read the The Rules and I agreed with quite a bit of it. Summary - if he likes you he will put the effort in to contact and meet up with you. If he doesn't - move on, because he doesn't like you that much. And don't act too needy with a man.

Some of it is insane if course, particularly around what women should look like! And The Rules philosophy does leave you open to love bombing so you need to be on your guard for that too.

Oh, agreed a thousand times. I think I just get depressed when ‘Am I good enough? What can I do to make him like meeee?’ seems to be combatted with very reactionary mind games about not accepting a weekend date after Tuesday or withholding sex because it’s viewed as a thing men want and women award as a prize for commitment etc.

All the dating threads on Mn should come with a sticky that says IS HE GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME?

Agree but I think there’s something in the weekend date thing, although think after Weds? I accepted last min invitations to find I was a booty call in disguise & others had turned down first esp for a black tie or similar. Depends on circumstances though.

Everyone deserves to be loved & respected.

This.

Yeah but the problem with this is that its all tactics and doesn’t tackle the fundamentals.

It probably does “work” in a short term sense if you refuse to accept an invitation for the weekend that’s issued after Wednesday. It means you don’t become a booty call.

But you’re just kicking it into the long grass. At some point you have to stop game playing and be honest with one another about what you want from the relationship. You can mess around for a certain amount of time “not being too available” but that won’t automatically make the person into a respectful person who genuinely loves you for who you are.

A committed long term relationship requires people eventually to be open and vulnerable and, sometimes, needy and irrational. If you present this hard, glossy carapace for weeks or months the scales will fall even further when you eventually drop your guard.

That all sounds like bollox OP. Just be yourself and if they don't like it then they are not for you. No need for strategies and game playing.

Frankly my modern 'dating' advice involves avoiding the dating apps and only giving my energy to blokes who have done self work and are capable of engaging with me as a human, oh and no porn users.

Dating apps are risky for women, porn brain rot and a certain male gaze obliviousness with women are sadly real things to navigate.

It's easier not to, tbh and just focus on friends and hobbies. Men seem to turn up anyway.

I dislike it. Not because I'm worried about poor men being manipulated, but because I can't stand the thought of women thinking they need to perform to rules to get and keep one. I'd much prefer to think women were thinking about how to make sure a man was suitable for them rather than how to make themselves as desirable as possible to someone who would probably be very fortunate to have them.

Yes, I agreed with quite a lot of The Rules. It was written in rather a twee American way but so much of it is common sense. Pretty much stuff like if you have just started dating someone, don't cancel all your other plans to make yourself available at all times, don't sleep with him before you are ready, don't get into a car with a man you don't know very well - if he is a nice guy, he'll find it weird that you are prepared to put yourself in unsafe situations.

Don't get into "heavy" conversations mega early - listening to someone overshare about their difficult childhood on a first or second date isn't all that fun.

It also covers things like friendships and work - if your sister doesn't make the effort, sit back a bit and let her call you. If your boss doesn't seem all that fond of you, don't bring in cookies and try to make eye contact with her - turn up on time, get your work done, dress as though you have a date after work, leave at a sensible time.

This. There should be one ‘rule’, for both people in a relationship/dating scenario. ‘Is this dynamic working for me?’

i agree that with the right person your not questioning anything or having to engage dating rules or techniques.
If your left questioning things then it’s not for you.

Especially if you’re a sensitive people pleaser I think it’s a good guard rail. Being deliberately cautious at first & being vulnerable & open later are not mutually exclusive.