To think the UK unfairly taxes families?

[OwnGravityField]

I have just found out that the UK is an outlier, in that it completely stops collecting a form of social tax (NI in the UK) once someone gets to pension age.

In every other country, pensioners’ contributtion as a proportion of income is much more similar to working households.

Example of disparity in the UK:

A working person earning 25k pays:

• Income tax: £2,486
• NI: £1,002
• total = £3488

A pensioner with an income of 25k pays only:

• Income tax: £2,486
• no NI
• total = £2486

So, a UK worker on 25k pays 40% MORE total tax than the pensioner (the difference between 2486 and 3488).

Let’s compare with a beloved utopia of fairness, such as Sweden: worker on similar salary pays 9% more tax than a pensioner.

Yes, other countries have slightly larger differences, but none except France come anywhere close to the UK difference in tax treatment between workers and pensioners.

In the interests of balanced sharing of info: France is tax and spend basket case. France taxes workers roughly twice as hard as pensioners. It’s obscene and the country is practically bankrupt.

Most other European countries narrow the gap by keeping small health or social contributions on pension income.

You might be thinking most UK pensioners don’t have 25k coming in? Nope. 3 million have individual incomes of 25k or more.

Anyway, I think it’s shocking that people at the most expensive time of their lives (kids, mortgage, food) are taxed so much more heavily. AIBU?

This thread wasn't meant to be a free for all moan. It's about how the current tax system favours current pensioners.
I'm around 10 years younger than you and also didn't receive all those benefits. I don't consider that unfair though. It's not something I think about. We did pay an awful lot in childcare costs but we are still better off than our children's generation will be. Better to think about the positives! My concern is for people younger than me, especially the Gen Zs, not myself.

The government panders to older people because they vote in greater numbers than young people. Hence the backtrack on winter fuel and the sustaining of the ludicrous triple lock.
It is unfair on younger working people especially as not only do they pay NI, most also pay 9% extra tax for their student loan, which pensioners used to get for free.

Maybe they didn't need that help as much? Sorry my editing is so rubbish but I've tried to highlight the points on this graph where a current pensioner (age 70) and a current 35 year old were 25 looking at housing to salary ratio. IMO this is the crux of it.

ETA I'm neither 70 nor 35!

My concern is being fair to everyone.
Abolish NI and tax free allowances Then tax everything that forms income at 25% for everybody. Include wages, rents, pensions, dividends, csa payments, interest on bank accounts, all state benefits and anything else I've missed.
If we all pay the same no ones being treated unfairly

Only 5% of today’s pensioners went to university, they were middle-aged by the time Blair introduced the 50% target.

Your post does not relate to mine

My post and the mumsnetter I was tagging had nothing to do with aging, illness etc. and everything to do with living alone.

RTT

As a separate issue re your post perhaps look at countries that are really suffering through birth rate decline. Remember eventually we will run out of immigrants to do the jobs people here either don’t want or because of low or zero birth rate

I agree housing is in a ridiculous state and it's probably the main driving factor in poverty.
I've spent most of my life cold, in second hand clothing and eating one meal a day.
We got £20 child benefit for 2 kids that's it.
When my husband was made redundant after rent we had £60 a week for everything else and that includes the £20 child benefit. Not even entitled to school dinners for the kids.
I have little sympathy for people getting there tax credits and UC top ups who want to take a 3rd rather than a 5th of the income of a pensioner who's annual income is just over £12570

Yes but that won’t be the case in 10 years - this pension problem just keeps on snowballing - it will not go away - the % of working adults is diminishing we need to tackle the situation now - of face getting into unmanageable amounts of debt.

As a pensioner, getting less than 25k, but unable to claim benefits, I’m paying taxes, as I have since I was 16.

Younger people didn’t invent paying tax etc. 🙄

Did you bother reading the post I was responding to? There’s a good 20 years before the first people who incurred student loans start retiring - and they were bugger all. It’s those who are took out loans after 2012 who are up to their ears in debt and they have Cameron’s government to thank for that.

@OwnGravityField. I had to pay childcare with no help! My dh is retired. A family on £25k will be getting extra help too

My point was that today's pensioners have paid way less tax over their lifetime than young workers will today. It's not a criticism, when they were working they were supporting fewer pensioners than workers today have to support. It's an ageing population issue, which is why taxes have to go up. But as the original poster suggested, so far this hasn't really been done equitably.

You know children are actually human beings right? Not lifestyle choices? They made no more choice to be born than a pensioner did to grow old. And yes we DO need kids. Otherwise there will be nobody to.support all the elderly (since they're the only ones you are concerned with) immigration isn't the answer (at least not according to the voters) Otherwise there wouldn't be so.much support for Reform

Aren’t tax rates lower now than they’ve ever been? With an higher qualifying rate?

A working person earning 25k

I'm working past pension age, so pay no NI, but you know what?

I pay almost £30,000 in tax eery year. So fuck off with your whining.

I'm paying for your DC to be born, to go to school, and for their healthcare.

100% agree. So sick of all the selfish 'I paid my way, what about me' chat. I have 20 years of work left. Never had free childcare. Will have worked for 51 years by the time I retire (if indeed I ever get the chance to!) But yes its gen z and gen alpha and those that come afterwards that I'm worried about. Their future is looking bleak.

Because they didn't need to to get a good job!

That’s a very ill-informed comment.

Becoming a parent is indeed a lifestyle choice. We aren't animals, we control our fertility.

And no, there is no shortage of human beings on the planet. If ignorant voters reject immigration, let them fester in their beds unattended. We are killing this planet and myriad other worthy species with overpopulation. Subsidizing the production of more mediocre human beings is wrong.

And take a good hard look around at the average human, whose existence is responsible for the decline of the environment. Half of them will never be productive citizens, some percentage will scrape along as unremarkable consumers and labourers, and only a very few will make any net positive contribution to society. Bilking those of us who are net contributors to perpetuate that pointless cycle is wrong.

Well.i don't see how. If only 5% of people went to university does that mean 95% of people used to do menial jobs? I dont think so. So they obviously didn't need the degrees

Yep. Perfect example of a selfish 'I've paid my way' comment.

It doesn’t really matter tbh - the tax burden needs to increase - someone has to pay - sorting out the unfairness in the system is a good place to start - but it’s coming to us all. Making everyone pay income tax will not be enough - if more people can’t work because the birth rate is too low and we’ve shut the door to immigrants, we need to spread out the burden everyone will have to pay or take a cut on benefits. But things cannot continue as they are.

People with children are nett takers from the UK system. People without children are nett contributors. I have contributed more over my working life than most current children are ever likely to.

And for that, I have to put up with your entitled whining - you get free childcare, free health, free education for your DC. 1 in 5 of today's young people claim some sort of mental health/disability which stops them from working. That's 20% taking themselves out of the workforce. SO don't give me the guff about older people being selfish.

And then you resent those who have worked to support you??? YABU.

Oh right ok. So we might as well just let the kids starve then right? FFS

You know you are ridiculous right? You also had free education, and health care. You can't say that paying for someone's kids to go to school is a benefit to the parent! Its a benefit to the child. That you also had. So just the same as you. And OK you didn't take free childcare (neither did I btw) but those kids that the childcare is paying for will grow up to be adults who pay tax to cover your pension! You're not special!