I’ve easily found £30bn of savings, so why can’t the government do this?

[OwnGravityField]

How about this state pension adjustment proposal?

Currently, the state pension system pays the same to everyone, even to households with very large private pensions and investment incomes. Much of this money ends up funding luxuries.

The proposal is simple:
*full SP for everyone who depends on it (60% of pensioners)
*households with more than £12,000 a year from private pensions, work, or investments have 50p of SP withdrawn for every £1 above that level, up to the value of the pension itself
*A quarter of pensioners would only have a modest reduction, and only the wealthiest 15% would no longer receive a publicly funded pension they do not need.

I used chatGPT to do the calculations.

Savings? THIRTY BILLION A YEAR

That’s 1% of GDP

List of things that could improve?

restored trust between generations so young taxpayers see their money spent on genuine need, not luxury.

national renewal: homes, NHS, lower childcare costs, investment in schools, training, the police force. It could be used to help families who are struggling with mortgage costs.

re-directing spending from low-value consumption (luxuries, imports) to investment (homes, healthcare, infrastructure) improves living standards

Positive effect on the bond markets, sterling value, credit-rating agencies, inflation trends, reduction in government debt - the UK really really needs this right now

I’d absolutely get up off my bum and vote for a party that proposed this. Would you?

The thing is that most pensioners are only just achieving the lifestyle people think is their right and you want to snatch it from them

they played by the rules and you want to upend it because you want more than they had or dreamt of at your age

stop focussing on hate and jealousy and focus instead on how to turn this country around so that living standards can start to rise again - and that isn’t dividing society which is what you are doing . That is not building more distrust of the state by encouraging theft and breeding a benefit culture

so yet again, those who work and save get bugger all while those that contribute nothing get it paid. Typical Labour voter mentality

They may well be legitimate sources but the data is then taken out of context. It will have pulled a mishmash of stats from various studies and research by the DWP, totally ignored the context, data limitations and caveats, then served it up to you in a convincing manner. It's in no way reliable.

"households with more than £12,000 a year from private pensions, work, or investments have 50p of SP withdrawn for every £1 above that level, up to the value of the pension itself"

When you say households do you mean households or individuals.

Your plan removes the incentive to save.

Retirees already pay tax on any income over £12,570. Will they not be paying twice using your scheme.

Sheesh. Ideas like this piss me right off. I’m late 40s. Have been paying as much as I can afford into a pension since 2002 (the first time I was offered the opportunity and had the means to contribute). My DH and I have struggled, still struggle. Doing our best to be mortgage free (19 years to go), have paid over £75,000 for childcare, supported family members financially not lived extravagant lives at all. No holiday since 2023 for example and you suggest this??

the state pension is an important part of our retirement plans. Given we’ve tried to save we will pay tax, but losing on top of this would have us in a very restrictive retirement.

based on estimates we’re going to have to have a frugal retirement as it is…and you suggest penalising us even more?

off you fuck please.

Why single out pensioners? Pensioners are probably the least entitled and have the most reason to feel entitled having worked hard all their lives. There are a lot of entitled people on benefits who have never worked a stroke, parents expecting hugely expensive special education for their children for free, expecting instant expensive treatment from the NHS for free, free nursery places, free immediate GP appointments. All very desirable stuff but there is no money.

No, fuck off OP. I’ve worked hard and paid into pensions precisely so I can enjoy some luxuries in retirement. It’s not a race to the bottom.

Does Chat GPT vote Labour then because this is their idea.

Actually the majority of the NHS budget goes on treating the very elderly

Yes but for the vast majority, £12.5k is the difference between living in poverty and being able to visit children and grandchildren a couple of times a year, being able to buy new clothes instead of second hand, running costs for a car and a home, being able to afford a bit of help as old age sets in with cleaning and DIY.

Otherwise what are we all working for? The social contract is work hard, save and you can enjoy some active years of retirement. You can’t enjoy it if you have less disposable income than a 16yr old with a Saturday job.

Are you really resentful of people on a pension being able to afford “luxuries”? How are you defining that?

Soon, a good chunk of it will go on euthanising the sick and elderly.

No jealousy here; they’re lovely people and I wish them well.

Doesn’t it already cost £5k per person to apply for ILR in the UK? I’m not sure a 90% discount on that would go down will with the far left / right ;)

If one wants to save £30 billion then reforming the NHS along the lines of a European model would get you there. We could also tighten the rules around eligibility to many benefits including universal credit, in-work benefits and disability benefits. That would also help get you there. We could merge NI and income tax, and increase the personal allowance, to ensure than those is work and retired paid the same level of tax on earned and unearned income. That too would probably get you there. We could stop frittering money away on failed infrastructure projects and either take the French approach of ‘build it and sod the NIMBYs) or just not bother. That would also get you there.

Or, we could target a tax at (a) the public sector and (b) those that vote. Yes, that makes perfect electoral sense

Sorry no, I wouldn’t vote for this. I’ve already been shafted by women’s pension age being uplifted, and the terms of my local authority pension being altered so it’s not as good as it was originally. I have stayed in a job which doesn’t pay as well as it should because it offered me a decent pension. I have factored in the state pension when calculating what I need. So no, this would be a hard no from me. I have worked full time since I left university with minimal maternity leave, I’ve paid my tax and NI for 25 years with another 20 to go. I don’t see why I should be shafted again.

Ah, you're ageist then - you could've just said that in the first place instead of the ChatGPT shite!

In that case the obvious solution is don't treat them, compulsory euthanasia at 65? Solves the pension problem as well.

This thread is a great illustration of the folly of relying too much on ChatGPT.

It’s a LLM, not actually ‘intelligent’, and as we see from the way it’s endorsed your proposal, OP, has not received nearly enough training - or is incapable of ‘understanding’ - human psychology. Hence it’s endorsed an approach which seems logical on the face of it, but would actually drive the population to change its behaviour and defeat the purpose of the changes.

Plus the couple in question are Boomers. Hardly anyone currently under age 60 has a final salary pension, the few that do have them they were all reformed to be ungenerous where 40yrs service gets you £8k/yr.

Oh do fuck off. People aren’t saving enough for private pensions as it is. This will just disincentivise people around the threshold.

Many will be factoring in the state pension for their retirement plans and having paid all their working life it’s very unfair to then take a significant proportion of their pension away.

Exactly! It's the reverse of the grasshopper who sang all summer!

Work hard save hard and then get the pleasure of funding the lives of those who haven't, and don't question it or you'll be told you're evil!

YABU. One of the reasons I work, despite my dh being a high earner, is to pay towards my state pension so I can have an independent income in my old age. Why should I then not receive it?

If that were to be the case I think we should be given the option not to pay for those receiving benefits now so that we can save it for our retirement

Ah right, I get it.
Those that save get penalised, those that don't save for their future or spend their money in their younger years on 'luxury' get rewarded.

Sounds perfect @OwnGravityField .
Can't see any flaws in that at all.

Where do we sign up?

🙄🙄🙄

Your proposal is too drastic, OP. Breaking the contract the state has made with people like this is a violation of good faith and destroys the trust on which governance depends. I would say that the triple lock is too much, but I would like to see our pension rise closer to the G7 average before we do away with it.

As someone predicted to be affected, I agree with @Kendodd that pensioners paying higher rate taxes should be subject to NI. I also think that WFP and similar benefits should be means tested.