To wonder why some gay people struggle with internalised (and external) homophobia more than others

[CaragianettE]

I know Mumsnet will be mostly straight women, but I’m thinking some on here will have gay or bi siblings/friends/DC, and therefore might still have an opinion on this.

I’m sort of prompted by watching Charlie Sheen’s latest interview, where he says for the first time frankly that he’s not sure whether his same-sex experiences on drugs were due to the drugs (which he’s previously suggested), or if there was some pre-existing attraction before that. Whatever you think of him generally (and I know there’s lots of reasons to think badly), it seems like he has struggled a lot with being anything other than completely straight, and it’s only now that he’s 60 years old that he’s sort of gaining some self acceptance. Part of what makes this interesting is that his sibling Ramon, who also appears in the Netflix doc, seems to be openly gay and married to a man. Their father Martin Sheen has a long history of supporting gay people, he played a gay man in one of the very first TV movies to deal with homosexuality and was in The Normal Heart in the 1980s and of course more recently has done Grace and Frankie. So you’d think Charlie grew up in a family where it might have seemed possible to come out as bi (I don’t think he’s gay), but he seems somehow to have been very affected by homophobia and shame, much more than his brother.

The reason I find it interesting is that I have really really struggled with my sexuality and I feel it has affected my life a lot, whereas I know people of about the same age (I was a teen in the 90s) who, even if they found it hard, seem to have been much more able to deal with it, come out at a reasonably young age and find a relationship. It’s not obvious why I was so particularly affected. There was homophobia in my family, and obviously socially, but it wasn’t a religious family. I was aware of my sexuality quite young and I do think that probably made it harder versus other women, in particular, who often say they realised later, more like 17-18, when you maybe have a bit more maturity and maybe a more diverse social circle and you haven’t had shame embedded through a really crucial period of development. But at the same time I do think a lot of gay people do know about their sexuality quite young, yet ultimately they seem to cope with their sexuality better than I have and work through the shame quicker.

Just curious if others have noticed that some gay people seem to struggle with homophobia/their sexuality much more than others, and if you have any theories about why (other than for really obvious reasons, like if you grow up in an intensely religious family you might obviously seem more likely to struggle than someone who hasn’t. Though actually I’m not sure it does always work that way?)

YABU - I haven’t noticed this
YANBU - I have noticed this

I think it’s circumstances and what you end up internalising and also personality.

I was such a shy kid and was embarrassed to be “seen” and I knew I was bi from a young age (I didn’t know the term but I liked both male and female). But I always thought to myself that I could never marry a woman. I didn’t want to come out to my family, I didn’t want people to know. There was some homophobia around in my family but it really wasn’t that bad and my friends at school were mainly accepting - teen in the early 00s.

I also had a lot of self confidence issues where I thought women were so amazing and beautiful and I didn’t deserve them, whereas men would go with anything.

Looking back now I’m much more confident and I do wish I had allowed myself to be more open about it, and I wish I hadn’t thought to myself that I couldn’t have a future with a woman.

I've got limited experience, but the two gay people I live with have been comfortably out for all of the 35 years they've been together.

And the one I've known, since their birth (because I'm their Mum) was comfortably out as gay for a couple of years be for that.

So, I don't think you are right. But as I'm looking at an example of two, I don't think I should vote.

Why do you think everyone here is straight? That’s very presumptuous.

Why have you interpreted the first line of my post, which says ‘mostly straight’, as ‘everyone straight’? I’m not really sure how I could have been clearer?

I realised I was a lesbian at 13, I'm now in my 50's and I still can't accept it! I was going to write out a waffling response as to why I think that (Mum and step dad issues. Not why I'm gay, but why I struggle with it.) but I'll spare you the details! I just wanted to show solidarity and that you're not alone.

Thanks for your reply. I’d be interested in hearing about why you think you’ve struggled, if you feel comfortable talking about it? But totally understand if it’s private.

No worries. To pre empt, my mother was very sexist growing up and I had an abusive and neglectful childhood. At home, the 'man of the house' was king. What they wanted, went. The male gaze/attention was everything to her. Very simply put, I didn't realise I'd internalised this, that male attention meant survival. Sounds simplistic but there is a lot more psycology tied up there and I have lots more to unpick.

I think as a gay person you are more likely to notice homophobia everywhere.

I could list for example a hundred things my parents have said that they'd probably have zero memory of

A good example for me was around when strictly introduced same sex couples. All the comment sections were flooded with "not homophobic but it doesn't look right". As a queer person I could completely hear the the undertone of it, and worry that that's what people thought of my self and my partner. Most of the straight people in those threads probably dont remember it at all, it just washed over them

In fact people often say those things no longer happen or even never happened but I remember them deeply.

Those things store up in your head.

People on here (and in real life) often spout no one cares anymore but its absolutely not true

I briefly shared a flat with a gay man who I think struggled with his sexuality due to a religious upbringing. When viewing the flat he told me he was gay in an almost apologetic way, like he wouldn’t be offended if I chose not to take the room on that basis. So yes, I’ve seen it.

Oh, i forgot to add. Likely due to the strong rhetoric that being bisexual was a fad and we would all grow out of it, I often have moments of anxiety where I'm convinced that I'm just being gay as a fad or for attention

I've been in a same sex relationship for ten years, I'm married. The voice in the back of my head still shouts at me.

I once read something that was a theory that people who claim sexuality as a choice (likely homophobic people) are likely bisexual in some degree themselves, hence the fact they feel they can choose one way or the other. I wonder if this is the same in a way for me as a bisexual woman. I dont have a clear cut sexuality or a real clarity because in reality I feel similarly about both sexes.

When I expressed the worry about doing it all for show in a session with a (straight) therapist they laughed and sort of highlighted that fancying both was really the only requirement. She also highlighted that as a hetro lady she really didn't want to have sex with women and if i did then id passed the test, and I think a bit of me was a bit shocked by how definite it seemed, and how absolute her sexual identity was.

I'm not gay but i think personality comes into play a lot. Some people enjoy being different and will go to great lengths to establish themselves as the different or quirky one, how that manifests itself depends on what counts as different in a particular society. And some people desperately want to fit in. Anything at all that could be seen as different is excruciating for them. Most people fall in the middle range. Being gay is obviously a minority thing so for the second type of personality I would imagine it's much harder to be the different one. That's just my personal theory based on zero evidence.

Religion for me. Only in my 30s did I accept I'm bi. I cringe at how obvious it was in hindsight, especially as a teenager. I just couldn't accept it because I was told from so young it was wrong. My family still don't know, they'd disown me. I'm in a straight marriage, it's not really relevant anymore.

I have two children. One is incredibly resilient and the other one…. Just isn’t.

They are who they are and who they have always been.

When dd was 3 she was worrying about what if the roof got a leak. When dd was 3 he happily believed he was a superhero.

If dd was gay I suspect she would find it very difficult and would worry greatly about telling anyone. If ds was gay then I suspect that he would cheerfully announce it with no qualms whatsoever and then get on with whatever he wanted to do with his day.

See, I can imagine this might be true in some cases, but I actually feel for me it might have been the opposite: I was quite a confident, extrovert child till early adolescence kicked in and I became aware of my sexuality. I think there were other factors as well (moved at the same time from a tiny supportive primary to a big tough comprehensive with a lot of bullying), but my personality completely changed and I became very introverted and anxious.

I have a gay friend and he is the most homophobic person I know. In a very long term relationship and happy.

Wait how does that work?!

Like ans person thry are individuals but i know people whose sexiual orientation happens to be same-sex, and then people who make being gay their whole persona the latter makes me think there is mental issues going on and some deep rooted putting on a performance need thing maybe linked to an addiction, I dont know what

Maybe it is the same with influencers who are out there as in a over faked personality

Yeah I feel the same about people who make being heterosexual their entire personality. Wedding photos everywhere and always talking about their children. Some deep rooted mental issues going on there clearly

🙄

@Openmouthinsertfood that really resonates - I only really owned being bi in my 20s, and have only come round to being gay in my late 30s. This has so much to do with the 'male approval = survival' bit you talk about. I just felt so worthless in all aspects of my life as a kid/teen and felt like the only time I was halfway accepted was when I performed straightness correctly. It never felt right, but I'd also grown up with it being modelled that love for straight women meant sacrificing yourself and all your wants and needs for man so it took years to really piece together what was going on!

The compulsory heterosexuality 'masterdoc' was really helpful for me OP and I know a lot of 'late in life lesbians' have said similar!