Rachel Reeves and other resignations

[coldiris]

Why is it that whenever any member of the government does anything they are not supposed to do because of some rules, laws and regulations, the only consequence/punishment they ever face is resignation? Pensioners go to jail over non-payment of their council tax, so why can government members just resign no matter what they do and that's the end of it? Sarkozy, for example, is heading to jail but if he was in the UK, his resignation would just put everything to rest. Shouldn't members of the government and MPs face the same sort of consequences for their wrongdoings that apply to the rest of their fellow citizens?

What evidence do you have that they don't?

Go and Google "UK MPs convicted of crimes". The number might surprise you.

@JamesClyman

Could you cite your source as opposed to suggesting a generic google search?

It is telling that the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, does not hold information on criminal convictions of MPs.

Disclosure of wrongdoing by MP's is not mandatory, what a shocker?

Are you not able to use google?

There is a list of convicted sitting MPs on the UK Parliament website.

@coldiris it is not either/or.

And what about ministers, incl. PMs? For example, Blair lied to the public about Iraq's WMDs. That took us to support the illegal war on the country that's never been the same since. No doubt, it also cost billions to do that. He faced no serious consequences. Now, they are seriously talking about appointing him to facilitate the governance of Palestine. Is that really the person to get involved?

Johnson lied to the public about those covid parties. Thousands of people lost their livelihoods because of those lockdowns while they partied obviously knowing something about covid that they didn't bother telling the public about. Thousands of people also died because of not being able to access various services in time. Did Boris ever face any serious consequences? Or Hancock? And will they ever?

Only God knows what we may discover about govt support for Ukraine where we send billions for God knows what purpose as the country can't address its own needs. Will anyone ever be responsible? I don't think so.

MPs who vote for or against something without proper scrutiny are also never accountable for anything and yet we pay their salaries!

@JamesClyman I've just had a look at that report and the number didn't surprise me actually. It's 59 MPs in total since 1945 and most of them in the 1970-1980s. Since 1990, it's the total of 3 and none of those convictions were for anything serious of the sort of Blair's lies about Iraq's WMDs. I'd say that the late 1980s and 1990s is the era when corporations really started permeating every area of government life and essentially the government started serving their interests and seems to now exist to legislate and regulate in their favour. As corporations grew, their lobbying efforts for their interests also grew. This is very much reflected in those convictions. It's almost like those MPs are made an example of to show there is justice where there is none.

could you show how many actually served jail time too @Mulledjuice?

My google skills are obviously weak 🎛️

Sorry no, I am not your research assistant.

😆best get googling then 😎

It's like AI tools which will happily go off and research things for you don't exist.

It's odd how much we tolerate lying now.

Rachel Reeves lied about the jobs she did, she lied about how long she worked at the BoE, she lied about her expenses (more than once), she lied about her chess achievements, she's been caught lying several other times, now she's lied about knowing about this licence.

Is it too much to ask for senior politicians not to lie all the time?

Badenoch also lied about being accepted into Harvard I think or something like that and then Harvard's admissions office said in the year she is referring to there were no applications from candidates like her and also it's highly unlikely that they would have made an offer of the kind she was referring to. And so, yes, they all lie and nobody ever faces any consequences.

Rachel Reeves should face any fine or other consequences if a court case happens.

Well down the list though, think of sending older people to care homes without testing for Covid, for example.

RR is blatantly a serial liar and even after being caught many times, showing she can't even cover her tracks, she continues to lie. It's not even as though she is good at her job. She has managed to turn a £22 billion black hole into a £50 billion black hole in a year and in addition wrecked growth by adding NICS to businesses and was too stupid and arrogant to realise, despite being warned, that unemployment would rise as a direct result of the NICs increase as employers would simply let people go rather than pay. Same with Nom Dom's who payed a lot of tax to UK have massively exited the UK and gone elsewhere. It's like everything she touches she fucks up. Any other LL in her area who did not pay licence fee would have been fined. Fines go up to £30k for her 'mistake'. Being ignorant is no excuse not to fine but this 2 tier government thinks they are above the law. It's not just RR, there was also AR and TS too. RR 's tenants can apply to get a whole years rent repaid to them as she didn't have a licence so that's £38,400k and I really hope they do go for this too.

Rachel Reeves hasn't even done anything illegal, let alone worthy if a prison sentence. She'll get a fine for breaching a local licencing requirement, the same as anyone else. No one else's job would be at threat.

The same with Angel Rayner, she was stupid but the usual penalty would be that she pays what's owed (which she has). No one ordinary would lose their job.

It's not so much about a prison sentence but more about the prinicple of resignation being practically the only consequence they ever seem to face regardless of the severity and the impact of what they do.

@Arregaithel it's not immediately obvious how much time they actually served. That's all I could find in that regard and there is definitely nothing for anything more serious like Blair taking us into an illegal war or Johnson partying during covid as people lost their livelihoods and sometimes their lives due to inability to access health services https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04594/

Why should she resign though. It’s pretty obvious she left the letting of their family home to her husband to sort out because she had just become chancellor. He ballsed it up and let her down.

Unfortunately, life is not perfect. If she is in any way at all involved with the family home, it's their shared responsibility and when you occupy a high ranking post like hers, it becomes even more important to ensure that everything is proper. Whether she should resign or face different consequences, that's another matter. My question wasn't about whether or not she should resign.

It depends whether it’s being let in joint names or just husbands, or even in a registered co. name with directors. Who’s signed the agreement with the Estate Agents. We don’t know. I do suspect Mr Reeves is very much in the dog house!

Generally people only go to prison if they are convicted of a serious crime. Is lying in parliament a criminal offence?
Someone renting out a property without a licence is breaking council rules and could be liable for a fine/refund of rent. Civil prosecution is possible but it would only be a criminal offence if done repeatedly (according to Chat GPT).

If you or I did the same as Reeves and the rental agency took responsibility I imagine the consequences would be the same - retrospective licence application and no fine. She looks incompetent but sounds careless rather than lying this time. I do think she should resign and overall think MP's London accommodation & expenses should be far more tightly controlled.

Jeffrey Archer
Jonathan Aitken
Chris Huhne

Just off the top of my head

@CinnamonCinnabar Is lying in parliament a criminal offence?

My question really was more about the overarching principle: whenever anything they do wrong comes up, the only talk we hear is about their resignations as the only consequence. Lying in parliament may well not be a criminal offence in every case but maybe at least one of the consequences should be seeking to criminalise some of those lies when the consequences to the public and the country are severe? Going back to Blair's lies, I am sure that intervention cost taxpayers billions. It's a very costly decision that ought to be punishable in a more serious way than any kind of resignation. Senior ministers lies usually have that kind of impact. We are not talking about lying to mum about eating candy before dinner here. So, either the law needs to change or we need to find ways to prosecute them under existing law to make it known to everyone that this is not ok. Resignation alone as a consequence doesn't do it and doesn't send the right message. It also doesn't pose enough of a deterrent to others.

I’m not sure lying should be a criminal offence. Lying in Parliament can be sanctioned by the Speaker. The public have the final say by who they vote for at the next election. Politicians lie sometimes because the truth cannot be made public. It’s a grey area and I think there’s better things to spend public money on.