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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A 1p / 2p raise to income tax should lawfully trigger a general election

474 replies

TesChique · 30/10/2025 06:27

There are vague promises in manifestos, and there are those which are explicit and should be binding except in exceptional circumstances (war etc)

If labour, or any party reneges on a core manifesto promise it should lawfully trigger a general election

They have lied to the public.

AIBU to think we need to see this change in law?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 12:26

PigletJohn · 03/11/2025 11:17

@Marshmallow4545 "Reform Councils are slightly different because they are stuck with a load of unfunded statutory obligations. They don't have the power to actually override these because they are decided at a national level."

There is nothing "different" about the difficulties Reform councils face. Except possibly that they wrongly claimed they could overcome them by austerity.

Precisely. Yet somehow they get let off the hook.

Legolava · 03/11/2025 12:55

snowmichael · 03/11/2025 10:15

if you pay £200 more as a result of a 1% rise in your tax, you're already paying £20,000

No, you’re not. 😬

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:19

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 12:26

Precisely. Yet somehow they get let off the hook.

Do you understand about the difference between local and national government? Specifically do you understand that statutory responsibilities are decided at a national level and delegated to local councils to deliver?

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:24

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:19

Do you understand about the difference between local and national government? Specifically do you understand that statutory responsibilities are decided at a national level and delegated to local councils to deliver?

I worked for local government for over a decade. We’re not discussing the difference between it and national government. We’re discussing politicians breaking promises which is not specific to one party - they all do it.

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:27

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:24

I worked for local government for over a decade. We’re not discussing the difference between it and national government. We’re discussing politicians breaking promises which is not specific to one party - they all do it.

Its hugely relevant though. You can't compare a council not delivering to a National government delivering. It's a rubbish comparison. Especially when the reason the council isn't delivering is because of unfunded national legal obligations that they are forced to deliver. They can't just choose not to comply with the law because they want to make spending cuts.

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:30

You’re just continuing to deflect. What about the Tories promising to reduce taxes before the last election, knowing full well it would be impossible? And the point I made in my last post?

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:38

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:30

You’re just continuing to deflect. What about the Tories promising to reduce taxes before the last election, knowing full well it would be impossible? And the point I made in my last post?

I'm not deflecting. I just think the two aren't comparable.

It is hard to know how the Conservative manifesto would have panned out. The Tories promised to reduce taxes but also reduce welfare spending. If they had reduced welfare spending successfully then this would have made a massive difference. You can't prove that they wouldn't have done this so it's a moot point. The one thing we do know with certainty is that Labour have been completely and utterly incapable of controlling spending and have allowed costs to spiral. They have already delivered one terrible budget and now are on the cusp of another one.

Labour have been terrible and are at very real risk of breaking democracy. Maybe Reform will be equally awful in a different way but I think most people how are willing to take the risk on something different. Labour will be in the political wilderness for a very very long time after this term is finished.

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:41

Let’s hope your crystal ball is malfunctioning.

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:58

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 13:41

Let’s hope your crystal ball is malfunctioning.

I would love to know what you think will happen to Labour after the next election? Do you think they will be re-elected?

GasPanic · 03/11/2025 14:22

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:58

I would love to know what you think will happen to Labour after the next election? Do you think they will be re-elected?

I think they will lose the next election.

They have been dealt some tough cards, but that happens a lot in politics.

A lot of people say things like "the Tories didn't want to win this election".

This is nonsense, because politicians don't think like that. The reason is events. Anything can happen over the course of 5 years, just look at covid, who would have predicted that ?

Politicians above everything else try to seek power. Then they try to manage the events and consequences of that (breaking manifesto pledges for example).

Breaking some pledges, such as things like house building, seems like a national sport, and it's more shocking if you actually make your targets than fail them. Others that are maybe a bit more clearly defined (not raising income tax for example) are more embedded in the national psyche and are a lot more difficult to manage in terms of the damage produced by breaking the pledge.

But I think the overidding issue is all parties see manifesto pledges as expectations to be managed rather than binding commitments that must be adhered to at all costs unless absolutely necessary.

I guess until we are prepared to punish politicians more for breaking manifesto pledges we will continue to get parties elected into power that see them as "flexible" rather than binding commitments.

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:23

Marshmallow4545 · 03/11/2025 13:58

I would love to know what you think will happen to Labour after the next election? Do you think they will be re-elected?

Surely no one believes that.

Alexandra2001 · 03/11/2025 14:29

TwistyTurnip · 01/11/2025 18:50

So you’re one of the champagne socialists that can afford to vote Labour then. I’ve barely got two pennies to rub together, let alone hold a string of investments 🙄

Lol... hardly, i was bought up on the social in a single parent family BUT thanks to Socialist policies, like free tuition fees, an education system, an NHS etc.... i managed to get an education and have a good job.... i even got a grant each term on top of free college education!

Paid back through years of higher rate taxes.

I'd like the opportunities i had to be available to everyone....

& i think everyone who has benefited from the state, which is pretty much us all, to pay more, the share of income tax taken, has actually fallen since 2010, was mid 20's% now 17%.... for those on basic rate.

Alexandra2001 · 03/11/2025 14:34

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:23

Surely no one believes that.

Why not? Farage has rowed back on ALL his tax cutting pledges... so all he has now is immigration to offer a disenchanted electorate.

How long before his immigration policies are shown to be unworkable?

Reform is on around 27% from poll of polls, so hardly stella & polling companies don't ask the under 18's either, they'll be able to vote next time.

3.5 years is a long time in Politics.

3 years before July 2024, Tories were 15 to 20pts ahead of Labour, a Tory win was a shoe in.

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:45

Alexandra2001 · 03/11/2025 14:34

Why not? Farage has rowed back on ALL his tax cutting pledges... so all he has now is immigration to offer a disenchanted electorate.

How long before his immigration policies are shown to be unworkable?

Reform is on around 27% from poll of polls, so hardly stella & polling companies don't ask the under 18's either, they'll be able to vote next time.

3.5 years is a long time in Politics.

3 years before July 2024, Tories were 15 to 20pts ahead of Labour, a Tory win was a shoe in.

Farage needs to offer nothing more than immigration to a disenchanted electorate. Electorate are so fed up with Labour they will take anything.
Never have a party (Labour) been so unpopular, never has a PM had such a low rating. Impossible for them to recover - in fact by 26th November I expect them to sink even further.

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:56

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 14:54

Impossible for them to recover

Nothing’s impossible.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/16/the-tories-arent-finished/

I can’t read it.

GasPanic · 03/11/2025 14:58

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:45

Farage needs to offer nothing more than immigration to a disenchanted electorate. Electorate are so fed up with Labour they will take anything.
Never have a party (Labour) been so unpopular, never has a PM had such a low rating. Impossible for them to recover - in fact by 26th November I expect them to sink even further.

His biggest advantage is that he is not in power.

Creating policy and defending it when you are in power is much harder than trying to shoot it down and destroy it.

Ask some of the shills on here about that, who spent the best part of 15 years having a go at the Tories only to find Labour aren't actually fairing that much better once it's their turn in the hot seat.

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 15:03

I’ll try to copy and paste it.

Will there be an exodus of Tory MPs to Reform UK in the footsteps of Danny Kruger, who has declared his old party as dead as the proverbial parrot? Apart from the fleetingly ill-starred Change UK in 2019, the last time there were serious defections from a mainstream political party to an insurgent newcomer was in 1981.

Back then the death sentence was read over Labour, which was in the throes of a civil war between Right and Left and had elected Michael Foot as its leader. That autumn, Tony Benn came within a whisker of becoming deputy leader in a monumental battle with Denis Healey.

The Conservative government, meanwhile, was struggling to deal with the mess left by Labour in 1979 and the medicine prescribed by the prime minister Margaret Thatcher was unpalatable even to many in her own party.

Some, whom her supporters called “wets”, even muttered about getting rid of her unless she changed tack, but she was implacable. “The Lady’s not for turning,” she told the Tory conference in October 1980.
Advertisement

The economy was a basket case, unemployment was shooting up, manufacturing was closing down and there were riots in Brixton, Bristol, Toxteth and elsewhere. The national fabric had been torn. Britain was broken: sound familiar?

The convulsions affected both parties. Gallup poll findings for December 1981 had Labour and the Tories both on 23 per cent and the SDP on 50 per cent, way ahead of where Reform is today. A plague on both their houses, the nation cried.

Into the breach stepped a new party led by the so-called Gang of Four, a quartet of former Labour Cabinet ministers who promised to “break the mould” of British politics. Two of its leaders Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams fought and won by-elections to put the party on the map. Nearly 30 Labour MPs (and one Tory) defected to join them. If Nigel Farage could persuade 30 Conservatives over to his side he would be thrilled.

If all this sounds familiar it is because there are periodic spasms like this in British politics and yet the status quo seems always to reassert itself, not least because of our first-past-the-post electoral system. Will it be different this time? Plenty of people say so, but they do not know and cannot possibly tell.

The parallels are strong, save for one thing: immigration was not the issue it has become today, though it had been 10 years earlier when Enoch Powell was warning about the cultural impact of new arrivals, albeit on a far smaller scale than we are witnessing now.

Back then, the SDP felt like the obvious replacement for two tired old parties. Unlike Reform, its leaders were drawn from the very top of British politics. Many assumed they would form the next government but we all know what happened next.

Thatcher was redeemed by the way she handled Argentina’s invasion of the Falkland Islands in April 1982 and went on to win a general election the following year with a majority of 140. By then, the SDP-Liberal Alliance as they had become, were down to 23 per cent in the polls and won just two dozen seats.

Events, in other words, can intervene and all predictions of what will happen over the next few years need to be accompanied by a healthy dose of reality. Kruger’s speech justifying his defection reminded me of those heady days more than 40 years ago when the end of the traditional two-party system was confidently being predicted by turncoat MPs largely forgotten today.

Many jumped ship because they saw the way the wind was blowing and feared losing their seats. But winds can change direction. All those telling us emphatically that the Tories are dead, Labour is finished and the future belongs to Nigel Farage need to get a grip.

For a party to leap from five seats to 326 – a majority of just one – in the space of one Parliament would be unprecedented. That is not to say it cannot happen, only that it is extremely unlikely. Moreover, to have a majority sufficiently large to get through Parliament the sort of agenda being talked about by Reform they would have to win an additional 400-plus seats and stack (or abolish) the Lords.

The greatest number of additional seats ever won in an election was 239 by Labour in 1945 – and that was after a war. Circumstances may be difficult today but they are not that bad, though the presence of the Greens, nationalist parties, Islamists, Corbynistas and the Lib Dems make electoral calculations difficult.

Labour showed last year that it is possible to win a big majority with just a third of the vote because there are so many parties contesting elections nowadays, whereas in the past it was essentially just two. But Labour were already well represented in many constituencies whereas Reform UK is having to build an electoral machine almost from scratch.

Farage understands this. He has been open about the need to construct a membership base right across the country and is recruiting thousands of disgruntled voters fed up with the main parties. In 1981, 70 per cent of those joining the SDP had never been members of a party before.

The Reform leader is also honest about the lack of experience inside the party, which is why Kruger’s arrival is important. He is tasked with devising the policies, and the wherewithal of getting them enacted.

Arguably politics are as febrile as anything we have seen since 1981. But that is a reason for circumspection, not absolute certainty. Too many people are now talking confidently about an outright Reform win in 2029 when anything can happen between now and then.

Indeed, Danny Kruger made this precise point at his news conference: they were not predicting a Reform government but preparing for the possibility that there might be one. That is a sensible approach that recognises that nothing is definite, especially when everything is in a state of flux.

“The Conservative Party is over,” Mr Kruger said, but I wouldn’t count on it. He believes Reform will supplant the Tories as happened in Canada – although there it is once again known as the Conservative Party after a “Unite the Right” merger that will eventually have to happen here.

He could have added that the “mould of British politics has been broken”, only it would not have been original. After all, we have been here before, and the future is just as uncertain now as it was then.

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 15:07

BIossomtoes · 03/11/2025 15:03

I’ll try to copy and paste it.

Will there be an exodus of Tory MPs to Reform UK in the footsteps of Danny Kruger, who has declared his old party as dead as the proverbial parrot? Apart from the fleetingly ill-starred Change UK in 2019, the last time there were serious defections from a mainstream political party to an insurgent newcomer was in 1981.

Back then the death sentence was read over Labour, which was in the throes of a civil war between Right and Left and had elected Michael Foot as its leader. That autumn, Tony Benn came within a whisker of becoming deputy leader in a monumental battle with Denis Healey.

The Conservative government, meanwhile, was struggling to deal with the mess left by Labour in 1979 and the medicine prescribed by the prime minister Margaret Thatcher was unpalatable even to many in her own party.

Some, whom her supporters called “wets”, even muttered about getting rid of her unless she changed tack, but she was implacable. “The Lady’s not for turning,” she told the Tory conference in October 1980.
Advertisement

The economy was a basket case, unemployment was shooting up, manufacturing was closing down and there were riots in Brixton, Bristol, Toxteth and elsewhere. The national fabric had been torn. Britain was broken: sound familiar?

The convulsions affected both parties. Gallup poll findings for December 1981 had Labour and the Tories both on 23 per cent and the SDP on 50 per cent, way ahead of where Reform is today. A plague on both their houses, the nation cried.

Into the breach stepped a new party led by the so-called Gang of Four, a quartet of former Labour Cabinet ministers who promised to “break the mould” of British politics. Two of its leaders Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams fought and won by-elections to put the party on the map. Nearly 30 Labour MPs (and one Tory) defected to join them. If Nigel Farage could persuade 30 Conservatives over to his side he would be thrilled.

If all this sounds familiar it is because there are periodic spasms like this in British politics and yet the status quo seems always to reassert itself, not least because of our first-past-the-post electoral system. Will it be different this time? Plenty of people say so, but they do not know and cannot possibly tell.

The parallels are strong, save for one thing: immigration was not the issue it has become today, though it had been 10 years earlier when Enoch Powell was warning about the cultural impact of new arrivals, albeit on a far smaller scale than we are witnessing now.

Back then, the SDP felt like the obvious replacement for two tired old parties. Unlike Reform, its leaders were drawn from the very top of British politics. Many assumed they would form the next government but we all know what happened next.

Thatcher was redeemed by the way she handled Argentina’s invasion of the Falkland Islands in April 1982 and went on to win a general election the following year with a majority of 140. By then, the SDP-Liberal Alliance as they had become, were down to 23 per cent in the polls and won just two dozen seats.

Events, in other words, can intervene and all predictions of what will happen over the next few years need to be accompanied by a healthy dose of reality. Kruger’s speech justifying his defection reminded me of those heady days more than 40 years ago when the end of the traditional two-party system was confidently being predicted by turncoat MPs largely forgotten today.

Many jumped ship because they saw the way the wind was blowing and feared losing their seats. But winds can change direction. All those telling us emphatically that the Tories are dead, Labour is finished and the future belongs to Nigel Farage need to get a grip.

For a party to leap from five seats to 326 – a majority of just one – in the space of one Parliament would be unprecedented. That is not to say it cannot happen, only that it is extremely unlikely. Moreover, to have a majority sufficiently large to get through Parliament the sort of agenda being talked about by Reform they would have to win an additional 400-plus seats and stack (or abolish) the Lords.

The greatest number of additional seats ever won in an election was 239 by Labour in 1945 – and that was after a war. Circumstances may be difficult today but they are not that bad, though the presence of the Greens, nationalist parties, Islamists, Corbynistas and the Lib Dems make electoral calculations difficult.

Labour showed last year that it is possible to win a big majority with just a third of the vote because there are so many parties contesting elections nowadays, whereas in the past it was essentially just two. But Labour were already well represented in many constituencies whereas Reform UK is having to build an electoral machine almost from scratch.

Farage understands this. He has been open about the need to construct a membership base right across the country and is recruiting thousands of disgruntled voters fed up with the main parties. In 1981, 70 per cent of those joining the SDP had never been members of a party before.

The Reform leader is also honest about the lack of experience inside the party, which is why Kruger’s arrival is important. He is tasked with devising the policies, and the wherewithal of getting them enacted.

Arguably politics are as febrile as anything we have seen since 1981. But that is a reason for circumspection, not absolute certainty. Too many people are now talking confidently about an outright Reform win in 2029 when anything can happen between now and then.

Indeed, Danny Kruger made this precise point at his news conference: they were not predicting a Reform government but preparing for the possibility that there might be one. That is a sensible approach that recognises that nothing is definite, especially when everything is in a state of flux.

“The Conservative Party is over,” Mr Kruger said, but I wouldn’t count on it. He believes Reform will supplant the Tories as happened in Canada – although there it is once again known as the Conservative Party after a “Unite the Right” merger that will eventually have to happen here.

He could have added that the “mould of British politics has been broken”, only it would not have been original. After all, we have been here before, and the future is just as uncertain now as it was then.

Thank you, departing on school run now but I’ll come back to it.

DisappearingGirl · 03/11/2025 18:38

I would like the current government to be given a few years to see how their policies work out in the longer term. I don't think Labour are perfect, but I don't think they're any worse than any other party.

The problems our country has are deep-rooted issues that will take a while to fix. Our public services need improving but no-one wants to pay more tax and no-one wants to cut anything else either. Short-term thinking isn't going to get us far; we need slow, steady and sensible changes that are given long enough to bed in.

Alexandra2001 · 04/11/2025 08:09

Julen7 · 03/11/2025 14:45

Farage needs to offer nothing more than immigration to a disenchanted electorate. Electorate are so fed up with Labour they will take anything.
Never have a party (Labour) been so unpopular, never has a PM had such a low rating. Impossible for them to recover - in fact by 26th November I expect them to sink even further.

No i disagree.

Labour, in terms of voter numbers aren't that far off Reform.

A poll put on here a few days ago, showed Reform on 27% and Lab on 20%.... they were elected on less than 30% of all voters but of course, polling doesn't inc the 16/17 age group, who can vote in 2029.

Thats Labours real problem, 70% hated them on July 24th..... Reform, shd they win, will face the same lack of credibility if they were to win.

We've an electoral system that only works in a 2 horse race, now we have 5 parties in the race.

Alexandra2001 · 04/11/2025 08:10

DisappearingGirl · 03/11/2025 18:38

I would like the current government to be given a few years to see how their policies work out in the longer term. I don't think Labour are perfect, but I don't think they're any worse than any other party.

The problems our country has are deep-rooted issues that will take a while to fix. Our public services need improving but no-one wants to pay more tax and no-one wants to cut anything else either. Short-term thinking isn't going to get us far; we need slow, steady and sensible changes that are given long enough to bed in.

100% Agree

EasternStandard · 04/11/2025 08:23

DisappearingGirl · 03/11/2025 18:38

I would like the current government to be given a few years to see how their policies work out in the longer term. I don't think Labour are perfect, but I don't think they're any worse than any other party.

The problems our country has are deep-rooted issues that will take a while to fix. Our public services need improving but no-one wants to pay more tax and no-one wants to cut anything else either. Short-term thinking isn't going to get us far; we need slow, steady and sensible changes that are given long enough to bed in.

Long term tax rises are because Labour have hammered growth and hit SMEs.

Needing to repeat major tax hikes each year won’t help.

Alexandra2001 · 04/11/2025 08:35

Labour are only responsible for the last 15months of growth and growth under Labour has been slightly better than we had under Rishi Sunak.

Growth throughout the G7, USA aside, is poor but the UK is at or near the top of that table.

The Tories raised taxes year after year and esp had to increase them after Truss, they also made no attempt whatsoever to cut spending, in fact they allowed it to spiral out of control

But Labour ......

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