To think menstrual leave should be a thing?

[ItsTheSeasonOfTheStick]

It might just be me, but I find coming into work on my period really hard. I get awful cramps, I feel sick, I am exhausted even after sleeping a full night and I can feel myself bleeding all the time. I just find it so overwhelming and I’m in an awful mood. I’d happily work extra hours for the rest of the month to make up for it, but I genuinely find the first couple of days so hard to work through.

In a perfect world yes. But also no.

If women continue to want time off for every female related thing - periods, PMT, Menopause, perimenopause, pre-perimenopause, time off for pregnancy related appointments, and maternity leave, (along with having time off for appointments - and events for their child(ren) every time something comes up,) they're going to make themselves unemployable.

Women fought for many years for equality, and to be heard and recognised in the workplace, and yet some women want special treatment, and special concessions, which is, in some ways, taking women backwards in time. How can women demand equality, when they want to be treated differently?

All the years I have worked - 40-ish - I have never had time off for periods, or menopause, it's always been unheard of. I also only had 14 weeks off maternity leave when I had my DC (1990s.) Yes, I know times move on, and yes it's better that women have more time with their baby(s) now, but I don't see things going well for women in the workplace, if they keep wanting more and more time off for this, and that, and the other. As I say, many workplaces will be reluctant to employ women, or even if they do, they'll be reluctant to give them important/higher positions.

I think that there really does need to be more attention to these kinds of problems.

However - I also think we can't assume that every problem has a solution that will come as long as we treat it seriously. Look at something like diabetes. It has always been serious, but it would not have mattered how hard people looked for a solution, if the technology to understand and treat it hadn't been there, or immanent so it could be developed.

There will be problems that we do not have solutions for, and may not for some time. Which is why we have policies (not always as effective as they might be) to manage serious chronic health issues in the work place or more generally in society.

I think if people were bent double with pain, vomiting, passing out, dealing with blood clots the size of a palm, when they needed to pee (for example), you’d have a different opinion.

Periods being a monthly biological function make it even more of a slap in the face when you struggle with them. If all women have them, why do mine have to be so bad!

It was fairly easy for me
letter from GP, gynae, occupational health
when I rang in sick I made it clear whether it was my endometriosis or something else
i had my sickness triggers increased for endometriosis
the agreement was that my sickness basically wouldn’t count until after the operation which I had a date for

but my pain wasn’t necessarily on my period, the worst pain was often when I wasn’t

But we're talking about healthy women who just happen to be of menstruating age. If they were to be entitled to paid leave every time they're on their period how would they prove it to the satisfaction of their employer's HR dept?

For me it’s summed up as
some women have awful periods way beyond painkillers and working through it
some are diagnosed, some are waiting, some have been fobbed off
women with diagnosed period issues and one’s under investigation need reasonable adjustments as for any health condition
women who have “normal” periods don’t need this
NHS needs to massively improve waiting times for diagnosis and treatment
workplaces need to be understanding that people with diagnosed period issues aren’t having normal periods

Yeah, but what I’m saying is you shouldn’t have to take time off sick for it.

There needs to be accommodations for it.

So much has been accommodated for in terms of autism and ADHD, so why not periods - particularly debilitating periods? I remember being fine with them in my 20s, absolutely no pain, not particularly heavy and I could work fine. Now in my 30s, they give me a really rough time. I dread them each month. I don’t see why I should have to use my sick leave. If we have more than 3 instances sick in my workplace, we are disciplined.

Exactly!

Yes of course, it’s kind of blurring the edges of it - people with diagnosed period issues or waiting for diagnosis need to be able to have adjustments
if you have a bog standard normal period where it doesn’t stop you from your every day life, you don’t need menstrual leave

And employers would avoid employing women! It’s already difficult because of maternity leave and is completely open to abuse (I’ve never had any issues but what would stop me pretending to get extra time off?)

Ohh I see sorry I’m getting lost in the posts/quotes. Totally agree employers should be more accommodating to periods/women’s health in general.

My period really affects me cognitively. I go into rooms and forget what I was looking for, I'll forget the names of things and call one thing by another name (calling the high chair a changing table this week constantly for example). Total brain fog, I feel like I can't concentrate. Absolutely fatigued as well, and having to change pads every hour during the night so really bad sleep. I usually exercise and I find on my period, my physical performance is really affected. I agree with you OP. I feel really slow and pulled down.

This

op, Yes, some women suffer extremely badly. And it doesn’t stop at menopause! There’s another 15 years in my case of very horrendous symptoms you are supposed to deal with. Unfortunately many women don’t and data suggests 10% of all women quit because they can’t cope, and up to 42% reduce hours or retire early due to menopause.
then there’s all the time needed for maternity reasons

this is a permanent state for women re gynae/obs issues that effect all women at some point in their working career. Modern economies are not geared to allow women to work whenever it suits them re feeling fine and pain free. And to legislate employers to allow for this

there’s whole swathes of population with disabilities that are trying to work …people with cancer undergoing treatment , people with migraines, diabetes, MS, crohns, EDS, psychotic illnesses, bipolar, eating disorders, etc etc

employers cannot make “just I case you need it” policies to cover all potential issues, they’d go bankrupt or public services would grind to a halt

It has to be on an individual level. We have a system in this country of free access to see GPs, get a “wellness note” that can instruct your employer what adaptations need to be made if your condition needs it. If GP won’t agree then seek second opinion. If that fails accept you are not disabled enough and even amongst young male population there’s folks that struggle with working life. We all have to make the best we can of it.

Those that are dealing with severe conditions are ones that need help to encourage their employees to make adaptation needed. The flexibility in work force needs must be focused there. especially given the potential slashes to benefits. Even working benefits for this group.

Then you don’t need sick leave as you are well enough to come into work

i say this as someone who was in intense pain for their first two days and often flooded. I dealt with it each month I wouldn’t consider taking time off

employers would refuse to take on women if your suggestion happened

See differnt GP or change practises - none of which you should have to do and frankly may not work anyway - never did for me I just got told to go on pill which gave me anxiety which started and stoped with taking pill but apparently could never be that.

Howvere what you describe is not a normal period for most women and needs investigating .

Frankly while sypathic to serve period pain - had it in my teens and 20s - it's really the NHS that needs to take womens menstrual pain seriously.

Sorry!! Think it’s a bit weird. Except if you had a very bad condition. Agree with the sick leave comment. Nothing special !!

Part of the reason that the more "traditional" model was men going out to paid employment, and women supporting the family through various kinds of work at home - paid and unpaid - was because of the nature of women's bodies. Being pregnant, menstrual issues, having tiny babies - these were often not that easily compatible with what employers wanting people to work outside the home were looking for. Sending women down the mine was not going to work well for many for all kinds of practical reasons.

So yes, it was designed to suit men, not in a particularly hostile way, but because it reflected widespread patterns that worked for many.

There isn't anything wrong, I don't think, with the idea that we could change some of the normative patterns. But it's difficult to see how it would work effectivly in some settings. It's like people who seem to think we can make working from home normative. But the fact is that will not work for many jobs that people are being hired to do.

I once had someone in a similar situation working with me. They requested an adjustment of 2 days a month of paid absence. We worked with occ health to understand what she was doing to help manage the condition herself, and then agreed 2 days WFH which could be shorter with the hours made up later on.

Don't give employers more reasons not to employ women! Most women are fine carrying on as normal when they've got their period. If you're ill enough to be unable to work, you have sick leave.

What a ridiculous suggestion.

This works nicely in certain types of environment I am aware of, sure. But I believe that because working systems were built to suit a certain dynamic, it's probably true that all working environments COULD have been developed differently, or could be intrinsically changed - it's just never been done/seen that way before.

If I ever write a Sci Fi/Alternative universe novel, this is 100 the world I will build - one in which the structures are intrinsically different to what we believe is "normal" or necessary. At which point I would have to do the research and thinking regarding what that looks like in other industries besides the ones I already know well. For example for shift work, if the way these patterns are established was shifted, this could change things - from changing default number of hours, to schedules that work differently (ie not 5 or 7 days or not 24 hours split into 3).

In my this world I'll be building for my novel, I already know that professions like garbage collectors, janitors/cleaners and nurses are at the top of the food chain because of their ability/willingness to do the dirty, hands on work. In this imagined society of mine, that is what's valued and that is how the heirachy works.

That's the same for some other health conditions though or like in my case when I didn't have a health condition but my child did and I had so much time off of work that I lost my job.

Why should it be different just because someone is on their period? If that's an exception then why not other health conditions or if your child has a health condition?

I can imagine the manager's spreadsheet now.

She'd know before a lot of women did that they were pregnant, starting peri, taking contraception, trying to conceive or at least thinking of it - and somebody in executive leadership would be wanting reports of employee menstrual cycles so they could determine who was taking the piss or might be costing them money in the next 9 months.

Not necessarily. It works in places where your work is outcome based. I might choose to still be working at 8pm on a Friday eve because I've picked up DC from school and spent 30 mins doing homework. My work doesn't go to anyone else, it's still down to me complete my deliverables but I get to do them when it suits me as long as I meet my deadlines.

Do you have a partner? A friend, anyone who can advocate for you? You cannot stop trying. I have been there, I get it. But the alternative is this doesn't improve. I don't know how old you are. No one took me seriously, even my own Mother said I had a low pain threshold and to just suck it up.

Fortunately for me I had Dh who said enough is enough when I collapsed with the pain and he had to carry me, we were in public and it was mortifying. That GP appointment got me referred, medicated, diagnosed (in 2002) and as pain free as I have ever been. I felt justified in what I was feeling, no more GPs telling me women have periods and you don't see them moaning, actual quote from a male GP. Having been in labour at 9cm dilated and just on gas and air that pain felt equivalent to endo pain so I also had a comparison but this was after diagnosis.

A few years ago I honestly thought a GP would fight me on needing controlled long term pain meds, nope, just happily prescribed them knowing I had endo. I am so used to battling to be heard it was shockingly wonderful.

Don't stop. You can't live like this, it isn't normal and is affecting you so much.