Woke / Bigot / Snowflake / Gammon / Racist / Karen etc

[Iwanttoliveinagardencentre]

The polarisation of our society does no good for anyone and these terms are thrown around in the media and have become part of everyday conversation.

We need to think about the damage done when describing people a way which encourages tribalism and division.

You can make your point without these labels. We need to be able to agree to disagree again.

Language matters.

If you care about the climate you part of the wokerati.
If you don’t think humans can change sex you are a bigot.
If you are concerned about immigration you are a racist.
If you object to something you think is rude you are a pearl clutcher.
If something offends you which someone else decides is not offensive enough you are a snowflake.
If you are a woman who stands up for almost anything you are a Karen.

At the risk of coming over a bit John Lennon can we just fucking stop it?

Yes I broadly agree.

I find that on social media, including MN, many people jump to conclusions about what you are saying or what type of person you are. For example, a while back I said on here that asylum seekers are stressed and the next thing I knew people were telling me that I had said that being stressed causes people to commit rape.

Somebody on here also accused me of not knowing anything about autism.... that was hilarious because I am autistic.

Go on, tell us how its misused then

YANBU. It's always best to try to understand why people hold the views they hold, rather than just shout 'bigot' etc at them, even if you find their views completely abhorrent. Not just because it's unhelpful and leads to tribalism, but also because 'knowing thine enemy', or thine opponent, is the best strategy for anyone hoping to get people on their side or change their mind.

I would add "bigot" to "racist" - these are not empty terms, they are words with specific dictionary definitions that are very often used in correct and useful ways.

Woke, snowflake, gammon and Karen are slang terms with very different cultural backgrounds (and it would bolster your argument if you actually knew their histories rather than lumping them all together).

The reactionary right's appropriation of the word "woke" from a term that originated in the African-American civil rights movement is one of the grossest linguistic developments of our era.

I think this is one of those Hydra’s head situations where you can object to and get rid of certain terms and others will take their place as it’s human nature to do this. Woke as an insult evolved from the whole ‘pc gone mad’ stance and those people/views won’t go away just because you limit the language, arguably those folk get more hardcore because they’re partly out to offend. I agree it would be better if everyone was more thoughtful and nuanced, but millennia of human behaviour lowers my expectations of that so I try to look past the verbiage and see the bigger picture if possible. We all have the John Lennon feeling at times. We’re all capable of tribalism and division. The hate won’t stop but there’s love too. People don’t always mean exactly what they say.

Isn’t that exactly the point OP is trying to make?

No, i would argue that being racist isn't a label and the term racist isn't a label. Where as the other terms are used to shut down debate and have different meanings.

Agree that it's imperative to understand why people think what they think.

But pandering to their feelings will never take precedence over standing up for their victims, for me.

I've spent a lot of time for various projects researching the manosphere, incels, MRAs, toxic masculinity etc etc. I'm genuinely interested in understanding what leads young men down that road and to an extent sympathetic to them. At the same time I'm very happy to call them sexists and misogynists, because they are, and because the priority is actually to protect and give a voice to their female victims.

The same applies to racists, homophobes and transphobes. The marginalised communities on the receiving ends of bigotry are my priority, not the ones dishing it out. I try to understand where bigots come from in order to stop them, not to pander to them.

To be honest, I am concerned about immigration and I am not racist.

It's the whole point of the argument. The other stuff is just there to disguise the 'why can't we post racist shite to encourage others to be racist without you lot pointing out that we're racist?' complaint.

It's just yet another example of deflection and reversal, focusing on the response instead of the obviously racist shite they've been spouting.

I think you are just making my point tbh.
Any term can be misused. It would be disingenuous to suggest that racism is the exception.

Broadly I agree with you, OP. But not about the use of racist.

I think people are tending to call anyone concerned about immigration, or in fact anyone whose family hasn't voted Labour since 1934, a "fascist".

All this left wing / right wing rubbish, that needs to stop. It just shows ignorance.

Completely agree with you 👏

You sound really interesting. I’d love to know more about what leads men to becoming incels

I’d agree with you OP and with the exception of snowflake could probably be called everything on the list. I’m not a racist but have concerns about immigration. Not because people are black but because we are a growing population in a housing crisis, services are cut to the bone.

Well said

So are the others I mentioned (sexist, misogynist, antisemite, ableist, ageist, homophobe, etc). Still not in the same category as those random words. I also think it's frequently objected to whenever used no matter what, so one can't exactly tell if it's the objection or the word being used frequently/misused.

If "racist" is the only word you notice and have a problem with in this category, it says something about you.

Unfortunately it's become normalised and accepted. There are plenty of racists on Mumsnet saying "Calling us that doesn't work any more"

I am not sure I have ever see the term racist misused, I would say its underused

Again, please can you give an example of something called racist that isn't?

In other words you can’t answer, can you? I’m assuming you’re white because you clearly have no idea what it’s like to be racially abused, and the numerous micro aggressions non white people endure every day.

Stop digging and concede that you shouldn’t have lumped racist in with the other terms you listed.

No, I don't think so.

Racism is becoming normalised. A Reform MP said this "it drives me mad when I see adverts full of black people, full of Asian people”.

That is very clearly a racist statement, predicated purely on the colour of people's skin. It is the kind of thing an MP, an MP!, would have had the whip withdrawn over even five years ago.

(And I guarantee you, there will now be people clamouring to join this thread saying it's not racist and she's just "thinking what we're all thinking." Racist nonsense.

The other terms you mention (woke, gammon, snowflake, Karen etc) are used as insults. They have no definable objectives meaning beyond their use as a slur.

Racism is different. We are all likely to have racist thoughts and attitudes because we have been brought up in a world imbued with racist ideologies. It is up to all of us to be aware of what's racist and what's not.

I am very careful about calling people racists. I think not many people deserve that description unless they show consistent committed racist attitudes and behaviour - Farage and Robinson, obviously. Trump has a long history of blatant racism.

But I am very happy to call out racist attitudes and language and calling them what they are. We can't fight racism if we can't even name it.

Can we finally get an explanation as to why men, the most privileged group, become “marginalised” suddenly when they say they are women? Been waiting a long time for this!

Well then, let's add all the other terms mentioned that are equally misused or don't you think so?

I agree PP. Some of those phrases are aids to gaslighting behaviour.