Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

No, it's non-compulsory therefore the statutory compensation in case the insurer becomes insolvent may be limited.

Our friends are currently fighting with the insurer that blatantly refused to pay the valid claim (not life insurance). My health insurer routinely refuses to pay, I began to view insurance as a legalised scam.

We had to get life insurance as part of our mortgage. I assumed everyone did.

In any case, my point about most employees offering death in service schemes (automatic enrollment) stands. Every job I've had (and DH has had) for 26 years has included this.

How about self-employed?
Are they allowed to breed at all btw? They have virtually no social security.

They can get out the same policies which are tax deductible. I did when I was self employed. In fact it's even more crucial!

What do you mean no social security??? I kept my NI contributions up to date when I was self employed. It's a conscious decision whether to keep paying or not.

@Ubertomusic They are paying 60% of all IT already, and how exactly is that different?

GDP is gross domestic product. In crude terms, it's how much "stuff" the country produces.

Only a fraction of GDP is paid into the tax pot. They are two different things.

I can't believe this is something that I have to explain.

@Unrulyscrumptious I don't know where to start with your argument tbh it's so childish.

Well no, wanting other people to look after your children is childish.

Someone could argue that they supplement your council tax discount, not their problem you're single and choose to live alone and not with a housemate.

First of all, have you even stopped to think about what you are saying? The reason why single people don't live together in groups is because it's generally unworkable. You would have to be able to find people to invest in a mortgage in the same property, for 25 -35 years, and those people would have to pay their fraction of the mortgage on time without being difficult, and for them to pay for repairs, to cooperate to keep bills low, etc etc. That's why you don't see single people grouping together and taking out mortgages. It's different for people in a relationship because there's a willingness from both sides to make the arrangement work.

Second point... I don't live alone.

If you're old enough to remember the financial crash of 2008 you will know the creative industries went under. Advertising and marketing agencies were dispensed with. Two friends husbands were laid off from £100k+ jobs. Both in their early 40s, one never worked again. I was a management consultant on similar money. My clients luxury beauty who just cancelled all contractors.
You will not always be able to get income insurance. I had it but they refused to pay. I've never bothered since.
I'm still married but we lost our home and spent nearly half a million on rent over 14 years. We always had to pay up front due to our previous situation and we were treated appallingly including racial abuse and stalking. I wouldn't want to have a baby with the state of our economy. Mine are grown up thank God.
Jobs are being cancelled again in the same industries and grad roles have been replaced by AI. @HRchatter isnt a rare beast.
My advice to young people, stick to the professions.

Once children are school aged, the childcare costs for a single parent of one aren't that eye-watering imo. Its frustrating not having enough annual leave to cover all the half terms and longer holidays, where two parent households can take it turns to take annual leave, but there's all manner of subsidised and cheap sports day camps and playschemes.

I don't agree with the PP's bizarre take on not paying tax for things you don't personally use, but this is nonsense. It's not a "lifestyle choice" to be single or live alone. If there is any choice at all it's because the alternative is unbearable - should you have to be unhappy and uncomfortable in your own home because there isn't anyone reasonable to share with? Living with a romantic life partner is worlds away from sharing with any old random person because you need someone to live with.

I would love to not live alone, but it is a nightmare trying to find suitable people to live with once you're past a certain age. If you do manage to find someone, it's an unstable situation as they could meet a partner and move out, leaving you with a property too big to afford, or having to move house, or desperately trying to find another person to move in. Honestly look around you and consider who in your life you'd live with.

If living alone was truly some enviable life choice, people wouldn't want to move in with partners. It's amazing people don't appreciate how lucky they are to have a partner.

I am insured up to the tits 🙄
They pay out for a certain period of time and once you’re done, you’re done with regards to mortgage payments.
School fees didn’t really matter. My kids pass the 11+ And just walked in.
Not sure what one can do about a dick that’s operating the husband’s brain. Let me know if you find Insurance for that. I’m sure we’ll all be lining up to take out those policies.

Feel free to educate yourself.
https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Income-tax-and-the-earnings-distribution_.pdf

I still don't see why you expect the high earners to pay even more. I don't think they're as stupid as you try to paint them (I know you were trying to insult me but sadly I'm not a high earner so your awesome wit was misplaced 😁 )

And I don't understand why I should fund your pension if you don't want to pay tax being childless 🤷‍♀️

So your DH didn't have death in employment benefit? Unusual with a high paid job no?

@twistyizzy HRs husband didn't die he bogged off.

Ah sorry wrong poster, its a fast and lomg thread! Thanks 😊 Apologies @HRchatter I got you confused

Oh no oh no, I just slug my eggs up in the air and where the sperm landed, it landed and hoped for the best
People earning 200 grand a year tend to be dreadfully irresponsible in my experience 🙄🙄
You don’t seem to have adequate Reading comprehension skills as all of your questions have been answered in the previous posts
Hopefully you’ve not bred. You’d barely be able to manage to complete the child benefit form.

The fucker is alive and well and living in the new forest 😭😭

Yes sorry I've posted to apologise for getting you confused with another poster x

It gets worse - I’ve got two…!

I had no statutory maternity pay. No sick pay. No unemployment benefits. NI will cover state pension which by the time I will be allowed to retire will pay for bread and water, if any. I could go on but surely you know all this yourself if you were ever self-employed? 🤔

Childcare should just be affordable 🤷

It is ridiculous that two people working full time minimum wage (but necessary jobs, such as in a supermarket, hospital porters, etc) jobs cannot easily afford children. Also I honestly think that you have been well and truly duped and hoodwinked by capitalism if it's a crazy idea that some people might want to work part time and look after their children. Do you truly think it's good for children to be separated from their primary caregiver so much from such a young age? Just because something is the way it is, it doesn't mean it should be.

Also our birthrate has declined significantly. We need children because they are our future workforce. Say goodbye to your state pensions. And say goodbye to a functioning social care sector for the elderly. We need to be encouraging people with normal working class/public sector jobs to have children. These are the kind of people being priced out of having kids.

Children shouldn't just be for the middle and upper classes.

Also, our perceptions of what children need have changed. Poor people have always had kids. My dad (80yo) is from a mining background and was one of five. They didn't have much, but they were well fed and looked after and happy. They didn't have holidays, clubs, hobbies, etc, but we seem to think children can't be without those things in modern society.

Yes I do which is why when we wanted to start a family I went into employment, because being self employed was too precarious. In the end it didn't quite work out perfectly so I had zero maternity leave, lived off DH + child benefit for 3 months then got a full time job 9-5 when DD was 3 months old.

That's what I mean by personal responsibility. Of course I didn't want to leave my child to go to work at 3 months old but we made the choice to have her so it was our joint responsibility to make things work out ie both working full time.

When you have DC you have to do things you don't want to do in order to look after that child properly.

@twistyizzy sorry I don’t quite get the constant jibes at Labour - it was the Tory’s who allowed maintenance money not to count against UC money - I’m totally anti that - it has made several people I know better off by doing next to jack shit and getting full benefits and full housing allowance plus very good and regular child maintanance( not far off £800 a month) better off then women I know working full time with small kids- the Tory’s brought in the subsidies at 9 months , no doubt Labour probably would have done so too but it was a Tory policy waiting to go through - there’s an awful lot of rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic going along with the right wing to make it look as if things that were Tory policy and are not popular are actually ‘Labour things’ - see all the Google type headings of ‘increase in pension age’ etc- This isn’t a new thing, it’s been in the pipeline for years - but hey let’s make it look as if it’s shitty new thing Labour have done

I specifically said the rhetoric around "free breakfast clubs" and "no parent should be out of pocket" etc. Both are slogans to encourage dependency on the state which I oppose and have stated why.

I didn't mention anything about UC etc. Have you got me mixed up?? I never mentioned maintenance allowance as an example

@twistyizzy I do agree ref choices though - I was back at work full time at 12 weeks post birth because the rules on keeping your job were very very tight , and couldn’t manage on 1 wage - what I then did was looked for a different full time job about 4 months later that had a bit more flexibility and was closer to home.

Same, our pipeline collapsed literally overnight.
I don't really understand why so many people seem to be so overconfident about their jobs etc, 2008 is not ancient history. And in the current economy I think such confidence is totally delusional.