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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Well, it's my Mother, but potential benefit fraud....

62 replies

Lizzylou · 04/06/2008 20:34

My Mother rang me in a state last night. It seems that my brother who is moving in with his partner, is not going to declare that he is living there so that his girlfriend can keep her benefits (she has a daughter). I think that the benefits will only be Council tax and tax credits as girlfriend works part time and owns her own home (with a mortgage).

My Mom is devastated, she has never claimed any benefits in her life, let alone fraudulently, (she has been lucky, but did struggle as a single Mom to us when we were younger) so this is so alien to her. As she gets older, Mom is also getting a tad more "Daily Mail" and kept going on that it was morally wrong and that my Brother would get imprisoned for fraud (she is dramatic).

When Mom asked my Brother about it and explained she was worried, he got very defensive and upset Mom by being short with her.

So what do I do? My brother is 32 and has been a bit "Peter Pan" and has had a lot of support from his family, we were all very pleased that he found someone so right for him. They seem very happy and he adores her child. I know my Mom is "Old school" but are her fears unfounded? How do I approach this, if at all?
TIA, and thanks for reading all this waffle!

OP posts:

bluefox · 04/06/2008 21:08

I am slightly confused I thought from your OP that your mum dosent get and has never had, any benefits.

micci25 · 04/06/2008 21:08

does your brother work? you havent said, if he does not they will be entitled to amke a joint claim and will still council tax and housing benefit, well even if he does work they may still be entitled unless he has a fairly good job in which case why shouldnt he pay the council tax?

could they be doing this because it is her who will lose the benefits, e.g i am moving into dp's house soon atm i get family tax credits of £80pw and income support too. obv when i move in with dp i wont get income support and most of my tax credits will go to him too i will only get the child element which isnt much.

could this be why they want to do this? she would be relying on him to give her what money she felt she needed as most of previous benefit would go to him.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 04/06/2008 21:11

I don't think I could report him, if I'm honest.
But I had no idea the consequences for benefit fraud could be so far reaching tbh, so when I speak to him at least now I know what could happen.

OP posts:

Original poster

Lizzylou · 04/06/2008 21:15

My MOm has never claimed benefits, sorry was some confusion as some posters wondered if my Mom would be missing out on her 25% council tax rebate but he wasn't living with her nor would he be claiming to live her.

Micci, my brother is employed and so is his girlfriend

OP posts:

llareggub · 04/06/2008 21:16

A prosecution for benefit fraud would come up on a CRB check. He may well find any future offers of employment may be withdrawn due to an unsatisfactory CRB disclosure. Such a conviction would call into question his suitability to work with vulnerable people due to his dishonesty.

He is running a huge risk.

Divastrop · 04/06/2008 21:16

i wouldnt rat on him,as i doubt they will get away with it for long.somebody else will do it,and they will be watched and then prosecuted.it really isnt worth the risk the way things are now.

have they actually looked into it to see how much worse off they will be?

yama · 04/06/2008 21:20

I was audited by the Tax Credits people last year - HM Customs and Excise. Just a random check but I had to provide them with absolutely everything from the previous year: all bills, phonebills, mobile phonebills, all bank statements, tv license, payslips, council tax statements, rental agreement, childcare invoices etc.

They were very thorough and it was a PITA but ultimately they were proving that the system does help those who need it. I could only prove I was on my own because I was on my own.

I suppose my point is that if they investigate, your brother and his partner will be found out.

micci25 · 04/06/2008 21:22

if she gets tax credits the majority of them would go to him as she is only pt and he is full time, she would onnly get the child element so would have a lot less than she used to get and would need to rely on your brother.

tbh i am unsure that i want to move in with dp for this reason and i have been with him nearly four years nows.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 04/06/2008 21:22

Thanks all, I haven't spoken to my brother yet, he is on holiday, then I am away next week, but I do want to say something to him.
I suspect he has no idea of the risk he is running.

OP posts:

findtheriver · 04/06/2008 21:47

he is mad. Any job that requires a CRB check would show this up, and yes, the employer may well decide that a dishonest person is unsuitable to employ.
What the hell makes him think he's so different from everyone else that the rules don't apply to him?
TBH you might well be doing him a favour by saying something at this point, because the likelihood is, he'll get caught and the consequences will be far worse for him and your mother further down the line.

KatieScarlett2833 · 05/06/2008 17:19

It wouldn't be your brother that gets into trouble, it would be the girlfriend. Could be Housing Benefit, Council Tax and Working Tax Credit fraud.

And they do check. And she will be caught. And if they split up SHE will be the one left with the bill.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 05/06/2008 18:11

Jeez, what a mess.
Micci, I really didn't know it all worked like that, perhaps she is being cautious as she doesn't want to lose benefits and then for the relationship to not work out?
I think I will have to speak with him, I doubt they have any idea of what they're planning on doing and the consequences.
They are lovely, normally lawabiding people and they have a great relationship.
I though that my Mom was overreacting, how naive am I?

Thanks all.

OP posts:

Flashman · 05/06/2008 18:43

err really what business is it of yours - if your brother is 32 I would have thouht his life - his choice. and joyfulspike what happened with your relationship with your family members that you ratted on??

Flashman · 05/06/2008 18:46

Yama - Just read your comments and was left to wonder what happens if you don't have your last years bills - 'cause I was thinking I would be fucked - I never keep a bill once it is paid - just think it is clutter. I would have thought that they would have to prove you have done something wrong

edam · 05/06/2008 18:52

Sorry your mother is so distressed about this but I'm in the 'his choices, his business' school of thought. Don't agree with benefits fraud, but wouldn't get involved, tbh.

LadyMuck · 05/06/2008 19:40

Well strictly it is your brother's gf's problem. Your brother isn't obliged to notify anyone that he is living there as far as benefits is concerned. It is the duty of the person claiming the benefit to give notice of any material changes in their circumstances.

That said, the checks that can be done are failry extensive, so he would be unable to use that address for anything. I have seen one client getting caught out over their child's birth certificate!

There is also a significant risk that if she is later caught then they assume that she has been dishonest for the entirety of her claim. She would then have to prove that your brother hadn't moved in at an earlier date, which may well be tricky.

I suspect that every LA is different - ime the DWP are the most thorough agency is trying to track down fraud - Council Tax probably the least. But that may be different elsewhere.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 05/06/2008 20:08

I know it's none of my business, I used the "He's 32, let him make his own mistakes" line to my Mother, and I think that myself to some extent.
Problem is, myself and my Mother (mainly my Mother) have had to bail him out lots in the past and he has just got himself sorted, I'd hate to see him get into trouble over something that could be avoided.
I don't want to say anything tbh, it will probably end in a row, but would equally hate for him to get caught and wonder if I could have stopped it.

OP posts:

Original poster

Lizzylou · 05/06/2008 20:09

Thanks Ladymuck, I honestly hadn't realised that it was such a big deal, I don't think that they do, either.

OP posts:

Flashman · 05/06/2008 20:15

What will your brother say if you comment on the situation?

Toothyboy · 05/06/2008 20:23

Further to LadyMuck - he wouldn't be able to use the address for his bank, his employers, car insurance, vehicle registration or driving licence. He would not be able to put his name on the bills for any utilities etc. LA fraud investigators have the legal gateway to approach all of the above for information.

LadyMuck · 05/06/2008 20:29

I've also seen DWP ask for letters from the school of any child (eg emergency contact forms) and for details of GPs.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 05/06/2008 20:29

Flashman, he'll probably tell me where to go!
And, tbh, I can't blame him. Big Sister interfering, not good.
BUT My Mom has used all her savings in the past few years and is now on her own and cannot bail him out anymore. I feel that I need to say something to prevent a bad situation IYKWIM

OP posts:

yama · 05/06/2008 20:33

Flashman - there were a few gaps with my various bank accounts. Any other year I would have struggled but for some reason I had most of what they were asking for.

I knew it really was just a random audit because they had phoned my dd's nursery two weeks before they requested the audit. The nursery confirmed my dd attended full-time.

I rationalised the hassle by convincing myself that I was helping to prove that the system really does work.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry - I think they only 'audit' a tiny percentage. The rest they investigate.

peanutbutterkid · 05/06/2008 20:35

I strongly dislike my brother and I could not report him for this (I might report any of your brothers for it, but I couldn't do it to anyone I hoped to have a future long-term decent relationship with).

I would speak to him direct, Lizzylou, tell him all the reasons you wish he wouldn't go ahead with this plan. If he does anyway, so be it, I'd shrug my shoulders about it & do nothing more.

Original poster

Lizzylou · 05/06/2008 20:43

I totally agree, peanutbutterkid.
That is my plan.
I think I may pull this thread now so as not to potentially cause any more hassle.
Thanks all.

OP posts:

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