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Follow on thread regarding growing Anti-Semitism in the UK

23 replies

Longingdreamer · 04/10/2025 22:03

Since the first one which I started is full.

As a community, we are shocked by the terrorist attack in Manchester, and grieving for the victims, on what was the holiest day of the Jewish calendar.

Islamist terrorism is a real threat to our community, and wider British society.

Please support us by showing kindness, and not participating in marches glorifying terrorism, which takes precious police resources away from protecting communities.

OP posts:
AthenaWhite · 05/10/2025 06:38

I am just horrified by all the useful idiots out there.

PersephoneParlormaid · 05/10/2025 06:41

It really is disgusting that people can’t go about their daily lives without living in fear.

User37482 · 05/10/2025 06:50

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/pro-palestine-protests-cg3mm5zvg

I found this really enlightening, Matthew Syed is an extremely reasoned, calm and thoughtful person. This was just so depressing.

I just want to express my solidarity with the Jewish community, I’m an ethnic minority myself and I’m disgusted by how hate has been minimised over the last 2 years. Frankly it’s revolting and reflects poorly on our society.

I asked a simple question at a pro-Palestine protest and it turned ugly

Police arrested 493 people at the pro-Palestine protests in Trafalgar Square, where I encountered abuse, swearing, ignorance and virulent, unthinking antisemitism

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/pro-palestine-protests-cg3mm5zvg

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 13:08

User37482 · 05/10/2025 06:50

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/pro-palestine-protests-cg3mm5zvg

I found this really enlightening, Matthew Syed is an extremely reasoned, calm and thoughtful person. This was just so depressing.

I just want to express my solidarity with the Jewish community, I’m an ethnic minority myself and I’m disgusted by how hate has been minimised over the last 2 years. Frankly it’s revolting and reflects poorly on our society.

Edited

Thank you for sharing this. This highlights what the Jewish community has been saying for a long times about these matches: they are centred around racism and support for terrorism. This culture has led to the murders of innocent people going about their daily business. It's time for change.

OP posts:
HelenaWaiting · 05/10/2025 13:12

User37482 · 05/10/2025 06:50

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/pro-palestine-protests-cg3mm5zvg

I found this really enlightening, Matthew Syed is an extremely reasoned, calm and thoughtful person. This was just so depressing.

I just want to express my solidarity with the Jewish community, I’m an ethnic minority myself and I’m disgusted by how hate has been minimised over the last 2 years. Frankly it’s revolting and reflects poorly on our society.

Edited

Pay wall. Does anyone have a share token please?

isitmyturn · 05/10/2025 13:19

I support the Jewish community and always have, even though I don't know anyone Jewish.
I have never understood why a peaceful, law abiding group have been persecuted both here and abroad forever.

From the very start two years ago it seemed obvious to me that the primary purpose of the marches was to promote anti semitism under the guise of "supporting" Palestine.
I defend the right to protest, to march, to be heard, but as with Just Stop Oil , continued and repeated marches do not change anything in this country, let alone in a different country. Protesters should be allowed their say, once.

Namechangedfortheterfasaurs · 05/10/2025 13:31

Archive link to the Syed article here: https://archive.ph/eXjjH

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 16:47

isitmyturn · 05/10/2025 13:19

I support the Jewish community and always have, even though I don't know anyone Jewish.
I have never understood why a peaceful, law abiding group have been persecuted both here and abroad forever.

From the very start two years ago it seemed obvious to me that the primary purpose of the marches was to promote anti semitism under the guise of "supporting" Palestine.
I defend the right to protest, to march, to be heard, but as with Just Stop Oil , continued and repeated marches do not change anything in this country, let alone in a different country. Protesters should be allowed their say, once.

Thank you for your support.

As a community, Jews are incredibly law-abiding. Perhaps to our detriment, as that means we are ignored.

At a recent march against Anti-Semitism in London there was only one arrest, and that was of a member of the public who threw things at and verbally abused Jews. There was no racism or support for terrorism from Jews at marches. There are also always a lot of British flags too, as we believe in supporting the country we live in.

OP posts:
Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 16:49

HelenaWaiting · 05/10/2025 13:12

Pay wall. Does anyone have a share token please?

Sorry I didn't realise it was. Here is a copy and paste in case the link doesn't work.

Let me transport you into the heart of London — Trafalgar Square, no less — in a nation that likes to pride itself on tolerance, the rule of law and mutual respect. There is a circle of people on the lower tier of the square, under the shadow of the National Gallery, surrounding a few hundred more holding placards proclaiming support for Palestine Action, a proscribed terror organisation.

I approach a group of three women — perhaps in their fifties, brown-skinned, British accents — and one of them recognises me: “You are that journalist Matthew Syed.” Yes, can you talk? They assent so I ask what I take to be a fair-minded question to elicit their position and why they are here. “Who do you blame for what is unfolding in Gaza? Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility?”

For the avoidance of doubt, this was the extent of my question. I didn’t say anything else about Hamas: that their founding charter is committed to the killing of Jews; that they have consistently said that they wish to commit October 7-style atrocities again and again; that they are funded by Iran, which wishes to expunge Israel from the pages of history; that the mullahs have sometimes insinuated that Muslims have a duty to kill Jews wherever they are found — perhaps, who knows, the inspiration for a man called Jihad, born to a Syrian father who described the Hamas attackers as “men of God on Earth”, attempting mass murder in Manchester.

A crowd of protesters holding signs against the British government's ban on Palestine Action in London.
Protesters during a demonstration organised by Defend our Juries against the ban on Palestine Action, in Trafalgar Square on Saturday
REUTERS/TOBY MELVILLE
• The Sunday Times View: The synagogue attack should give us all pause for reflection

No, all I asked was: “Is Hamas partly responsible?” Here’s what happened next, as their friendly faces turned to, well, something else. “Go away,” one said. “Go away. You are a bad faith actor. We don’t want to talk to you. Just f off. It’s a really boring old line. You are disgusting.” “I am disgusting?” “Yes, you are disgusting. You are not a journalist. It’s very clear what your position is here.” Now, their voices were getting louder: “Piss off.” “Thanks for your time, I appreciate it,” I said retreating, but they were not finished. “What are you doing here anyway? You are prejudiced. Hopefully nobody will ever buy a book you write. You are a charlatan. You are a fing racist.”

Those surrounding us started to join in. “Well said, sister.” “Yeah, well said!” Others in the enclosure began to applaud. I noticed a tall man with a Palestinian flag a few metres away and he pointed at me, although I wasn’t sure why. A younger woman approached and said: “I have seen you all afternoon trying to get a rise from people.” “I only asked if Hamas is partly responsible. Is that so very provocative?” “You are here to cause trouble and you are going to get trouble,” she said.

I wish I could tell you that this was a one-off but I spoke to at least two dozen people and, with two exceptions (including a lovely black guy from north London who conversed intelligently and politely), the motivation for being here was obvious, potent and implacable. The hatred of Jews. I heard conspiracy theories (October 7 was a false flag operation), blood libels, and the pervasive view that the Manchester atrocity was not a heinous attack but righteous comeuppance for an evil people. My sense is that many felt liberated to say what they really thought by the proximity of like-minded others; the classic symptom of mob mentality.

Protest in Trafalgar Square with a Palestinian flag flying and a banner reading "Lift the Ban on Palestine Action, Defend Our Juries, Peace, Drop the Charges."
MATTHEW CHATTLE/ALAMY LIVE NEWS

What perhaps struck me the most was the vivid contrast between the ostensibly peaceful nature of the protest — holding flags, going limp when arrested so they had to be lifted by four officers at a time — and the latent violence of the views. As police carried off an elderly protester who I’d talked to a little earlier (and who was convinced of the virtue of his hateful opinions), protesters started shouting at the young officers: “Shame on you! Shame on you!” “But are they not following the instruction of a democratically elected government — even if you disagree with it — and upholding the rule of law?” “F democracy. F the police.”

Few would tell me their names, except for Julia and Ian, Musa from north London, Ahmed from Oxford and Jeremy from Lyme Regis; all the rest wished to spout their hate anonymously. Perhaps you will say that these people are not representative of the UK, but with protests in London and Manchester in the aftermath of Thursday’s attack on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, and the dozens of other marches that have taken place since October 7, it is difficult to overestimate the potent and increasingly assertive nature of antisemitism.

You perhaps won’t be surprised to hear that most were virulently left wing. I almost felt like crying as another anonymous hater — perhaps 22, white, middle-class accent — started to lecture me about intersectionality and colonialist oppression. It was like woke bingo. I couldn’t help asking about the oppression of women in Gaza but her face went blank. “How the f* do you know women are treated badly?” Er, Amnesty International. This momentarily fazed her since she couldn’t quite place Amnesty in the institutional framework of the Jew-funded global conspiracy. But she recovered quickly: “Well, I haven’t read about that, but I have read about Jewish occupation and genocide.”

• Pro-Palestine protests: as it happened

Another striking thing in this age of free-flowing digital information was the incuriosity of this supposedly politically motivated group. Trump announced a potential end to the Gaza conflict in a diplomatic coup last Monday when almost a dozen Muslim nations signing up to a proposed peace deal, alongside Israel. I am no Trump fan, and the proposal may yet fall apart, but there is no chance that this could have been achieved by Joe Biden, let alone Kamala Harris. Coming on top of the seminal Abraham Accords, it testifies to the diplomatic tenacity of the American president.

But how did they feel about this breakthrough here? How did protesters who “weep” for Gazans feel about the prospect the killing might end? I can assert that almost nobody I spoke to showed the slightest interest. “I haven’t kept up with that one.” “I haven’t read about it.” “If Netanyahu signed up, it must be awful.” But surely it is a good thing if it brings to an end the slaughter? Hesitation. “But it won’t be a just peace.” I didn’t need to ask the follow-up question because the answer was obvious. No peace can be just if it involves the Little Satan, particularly when in concert with the Big Satan.

Police officers detaining a demonstrator during a protest in support of Palestine Action in Trafalgar Square.
Police officers detain a demonstrator in Trafalgar Square

Joseph Henrich, the Harvard anthropologist, has said that ideology “doesn’t just blind; it binds”. Nowhere is this more true than with antisemitism. Many of these people do not just hate Jewish people, they have an ideology to justify and legitimise their hatred; one conveniently protected from doubt by the unwillingness to engage with anything that challenges it. In this sense, it is not so very different from the myopic fundamentalism of the group so many here admire. Hamas.

I left Trafalgar Square even more convinced that the government has demonstrated criminal complacency about the rise in antisemitism over recent years. Now is the time for robust action. Otherwise we will see more atrocities like Manchester, and ever greater fear among a group that has made a huge contribution to this nation and regarded it once as a place of refuge.

OP posts:
Ablushingcrow · 05/10/2025 17:04

I don't know how to make things better for the Jewish community but I will say this..I stand by Israel and Jews with all my heart, and I always will, until I take my last breath.

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 17:20

Ablushingcrow · 05/10/2025 17:04

I don't know how to make things better for the Jewish community but I will say this..I stand by Israel and Jews with all my heart, and I always will, until I take my last breath.

Thank you, support is really appreciated.

OP posts:
isitmyturn · 05/10/2025 17:24

Thanks for printing the text, I couldn't get past the pay wall. I did look the journalist up and he was interviewed on Times radio. Quite chilling.

FirstNationsEnglish · 05/10/2025 17:38

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 16:49

Sorry I didn't realise it was. Here is a copy and paste in case the link doesn't work.

Let me transport you into the heart of London — Trafalgar Square, no less — in a nation that likes to pride itself on tolerance, the rule of law and mutual respect. There is a circle of people on the lower tier of the square, under the shadow of the National Gallery, surrounding a few hundred more holding placards proclaiming support for Palestine Action, a proscribed terror organisation.

I approach a group of three women — perhaps in their fifties, brown-skinned, British accents — and one of them recognises me: “You are that journalist Matthew Syed.” Yes, can you talk? They assent so I ask what I take to be a fair-minded question to elicit their position and why they are here. “Who do you blame for what is unfolding in Gaza? Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility?”

For the avoidance of doubt, this was the extent of my question. I didn’t say anything else about Hamas: that their founding charter is committed to the killing of Jews; that they have consistently said that they wish to commit October 7-style atrocities again and again; that they are funded by Iran, which wishes to expunge Israel from the pages of history; that the mullahs have sometimes insinuated that Muslims have a duty to kill Jews wherever they are found — perhaps, who knows, the inspiration for a man called Jihad, born to a Syrian father who described the Hamas attackers as “men of God on Earth”, attempting mass murder in Manchester.

A crowd of protesters holding signs against the British government's ban on Palestine Action in London.
Protesters during a demonstration organised by Defend our Juries against the ban on Palestine Action, in Trafalgar Square on Saturday
REUTERS/TOBY MELVILLE
• The Sunday Times View: The synagogue attack should give us all pause for reflection

No, all I asked was: “Is Hamas partly responsible?” Here’s what happened next, as their friendly faces turned to, well, something else. “Go away,” one said. “Go away. You are a bad faith actor. We don’t want to talk to you. Just f off. It’s a really boring old line. You are disgusting.” “I am disgusting?” “Yes, you are disgusting. You are not a journalist. It’s very clear what your position is here.” Now, their voices were getting louder: “Piss off.” “Thanks for your time, I appreciate it,” I said retreating, but they were not finished. “What are you doing here anyway? You are prejudiced. Hopefully nobody will ever buy a book you write. You are a charlatan. You are a fing racist.”

Those surrounding us started to join in. “Well said, sister.” “Yeah, well said!” Others in the enclosure began to applaud. I noticed a tall man with a Palestinian flag a few metres away and he pointed at me, although I wasn’t sure why. A younger woman approached and said: “I have seen you all afternoon trying to get a rise from people.” “I only asked if Hamas is partly responsible. Is that so very provocative?” “You are here to cause trouble and you are going to get trouble,” she said.

I wish I could tell you that this was a one-off but I spoke to at least two dozen people and, with two exceptions (including a lovely black guy from north London who conversed intelligently and politely), the motivation for being here was obvious, potent and implacable. The hatred of Jews. I heard conspiracy theories (October 7 was a false flag operation), blood libels, and the pervasive view that the Manchester atrocity was not a heinous attack but righteous comeuppance for an evil people. My sense is that many felt liberated to say what they really thought by the proximity of like-minded others; the classic symptom of mob mentality.

Protest in Trafalgar Square with a Palestinian flag flying and a banner reading "Lift the Ban on Palestine Action, Defend Our Juries, Peace, Drop the Charges."
MATTHEW CHATTLE/ALAMY LIVE NEWS

What perhaps struck me the most was the vivid contrast between the ostensibly peaceful nature of the protest — holding flags, going limp when arrested so they had to be lifted by four officers at a time — and the latent violence of the views. As police carried off an elderly protester who I’d talked to a little earlier (and who was convinced of the virtue of his hateful opinions), protesters started shouting at the young officers: “Shame on you! Shame on you!” “But are they not following the instruction of a democratically elected government — even if you disagree with it — and upholding the rule of law?” “F democracy. F the police.”

Few would tell me their names, except for Julia and Ian, Musa from north London, Ahmed from Oxford and Jeremy from Lyme Regis; all the rest wished to spout their hate anonymously. Perhaps you will say that these people are not representative of the UK, but with protests in London and Manchester in the aftermath of Thursday’s attack on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, and the dozens of other marches that have taken place since October 7, it is difficult to overestimate the potent and increasingly assertive nature of antisemitism.

You perhaps won’t be surprised to hear that most were virulently left wing. I almost felt like crying as another anonymous hater — perhaps 22, white, middle-class accent — started to lecture me about intersectionality and colonialist oppression. It was like woke bingo. I couldn’t help asking about the oppression of women in Gaza but her face went blank. “How the f* do you know women are treated badly?” Er, Amnesty International. This momentarily fazed her since she couldn’t quite place Amnesty in the institutional framework of the Jew-funded global conspiracy. But she recovered quickly: “Well, I haven’t read about that, but I have read about Jewish occupation and genocide.”

• Pro-Palestine protests: as it happened

Another striking thing in this age of free-flowing digital information was the incuriosity of this supposedly politically motivated group. Trump announced a potential end to the Gaza conflict in a diplomatic coup last Monday when almost a dozen Muslim nations signing up to a proposed peace deal, alongside Israel. I am no Trump fan, and the proposal may yet fall apart, but there is no chance that this could have been achieved by Joe Biden, let alone Kamala Harris. Coming on top of the seminal Abraham Accords, it testifies to the diplomatic tenacity of the American president.

But how did they feel about this breakthrough here? How did protesters who “weep” for Gazans feel about the prospect the killing might end? I can assert that almost nobody I spoke to showed the slightest interest. “I haven’t kept up with that one.” “I haven’t read about it.” “If Netanyahu signed up, it must be awful.” But surely it is a good thing if it brings to an end the slaughter? Hesitation. “But it won’t be a just peace.” I didn’t need to ask the follow-up question because the answer was obvious. No peace can be just if it involves the Little Satan, particularly when in concert with the Big Satan.

Police officers detaining a demonstrator during a protest in support of Palestine Action in Trafalgar Square.
Police officers detain a demonstrator in Trafalgar Square

Joseph Henrich, the Harvard anthropologist, has said that ideology “doesn’t just blind; it binds”. Nowhere is this more true than with antisemitism. Many of these people do not just hate Jewish people, they have an ideology to justify and legitimise their hatred; one conveniently protected from doubt by the unwillingness to engage with anything that challenges it. In this sense, it is not so very different from the myopic fundamentalism of the group so many here admire. Hamas.

I left Trafalgar Square even more convinced that the government has demonstrated criminal complacency about the rise in antisemitism over recent years. Now is the time for robust action. Otherwise we will see more atrocities like Manchester, and ever greater fear among a group that has made a huge contribution to this nation and regarded it once as a place of refuge.

But, but, but surely they all just hug trees and love humanity and are simply showing their caring, sharing side*? The reason they are covering their faces is simply because of storm Amy, or that winter is drawing in and it's a bit chilly out there.

*unless you happen to be Jewish, obvs.

HelenaWaiting · 05/10/2025 17:53

@Longingdreamer Thank you for the cut and paste. I am the daughter of an Italian Roma mother and a British mixed race father. I have always supported and had affection for the Jewish community, not least because of the expellation of my family from Italy during WWII, and the fact that our suffering at the hands of the Nazis wasn't forgotten by Holocaust Memorial organisations.

I have long been convinced that these Pro-Palestine marches were just a mask for antisemitism. It is frustrating how many people - even those I would previously have considered reasonable - cannot or do not want to take this in. Most of the marchers do not give a sh1t about the Palestinians; they just see a handy stick to beat Jews with. Many of them chant "from the river to the sea" whilst claiming to be utterly ignorant of its meaning (but continued to chant it even when that meaning was explained to them). Many demonstrators, and even more of their supporters, are utterly ignorant over whether they are protesting the plight of the Palestinians or whether they are supporting Palestine Action, a banned organisation. Do these people seriously think that the British Government would ban an organisation without reason? Does it cross none of their minds that maybe the security services know a little more about Palestine Action than they do?

Posting on here, particularly in support of demonstrations being suspended this weekend, in tacit support of the protection of our Jewish communities, I have been called both "Jewish" and "Israeli" - both terms used perjoratively, and both used to explain away my views, rather than engaging with them.

My mother, borrowing from Dostoevsky, used to say "the level of civilisation in a society can be determined by how it treats its Jews". I fear that we can no longer call ourselves civilised.

Eskarina1 · 05/10/2025 17:54

There's too much noise on all sides. You either have to be pro Israel, believe in evil islamists plotting to take over the world and accept a UN declared genocide as an acceptable response to terrorism or you have to be anti semitic.

Calling me a useful idiot for not believing in a giant Islamist conspiracy theory any more than I believe in a giant zionist one doesn't convince me. Especially when Israel have just invited Tommy Robinson to speak to them as a leader in the fight against Islam. Or when president Trump genuinely posted a "Trump Gaza" video with golden statues of himself in an AI holiday destination. I remember the devastation when Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated, my mother cried, and i remember the fear when Netenyahu took power. The situation is incredibly complex and by trying to force a singular good vs evil narrative it's radicalising people.

As a really articulate Rabbi said recently, if you tell people that objecting to genocide is anti semitism then you are saying Jews are pro genocide, which is a ridiculous assertion. And one that is massively actively contributing to the rise in anti semitism.

HelenaWaiting · 05/10/2025 18:06

@Eskarina1
The Trump Gaza video was satire which people wrongly took seriously. The articulate Rabbi is simply wrong. Genocide has a clearly defined legal definition. As wrong as Netanyahu's actions in Gaza are, they do not constitute genocide and I suspect that the term is being used because of its link to the Holocaust. The statement "objecting to genocide is anti semitism then you are saying Jews are pro genocide" is not only illogical, it is juvenile reasoning.

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 18:22

Eskarina1 · 05/10/2025 17:54

There's too much noise on all sides. You either have to be pro Israel, believe in evil islamists plotting to take over the world and accept a UN declared genocide as an acceptable response to terrorism or you have to be anti semitic.

Calling me a useful idiot for not believing in a giant Islamist conspiracy theory any more than I believe in a giant zionist one doesn't convince me. Especially when Israel have just invited Tommy Robinson to speak to them as a leader in the fight against Islam. Or when president Trump genuinely posted a "Trump Gaza" video with golden statues of himself in an AI holiday destination. I remember the devastation when Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated, my mother cried, and i remember the fear when Netenyahu took power. The situation is incredibly complex and by trying to force a singular good vs evil narrative it's radicalising people.

As a really articulate Rabbi said recently, if you tell people that objecting to genocide is anti semitism then you are saying Jews are pro genocide, which is a ridiculous assertion. And one that is massively actively contributing to the rise in anti semitism.

There is room for nuance, and this is not about Israel. It is about British Jews in the UK, who are wrongly being persecuted and murdered.

Islamist terrorism is not a conspiracy theory either, including (or perhaps especially) in this country. We saw just one example with the Yom Kippur terrorist attack, but also many others, including the London terrorist attacks. There is a lot of information published by the government regarding the threat of Islamist terrorism to British national security.

OP posts:
Uggbootsforever · 05/10/2025 18:25

YANBU.

The left’s allegiance with Islam is probably the most baffling and suicidal allegiance in the world.

Until they wake up and smell the coffee - that they are being used for the purposes of furthering a far right theocracy in the UK, and will be disposed of for their characteristics once that happens, and that ‘first they came for the Jews’ is now applicable to their side - the European West is in danger.

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 21:24

Uggbootsforever · 05/10/2025 18:25

YANBU.

The left’s allegiance with Islam is probably the most baffling and suicidal allegiance in the world.

Until they wake up and smell the coffee - that they are being used for the purposes of furthering a far right theocracy in the UK, and will be disposed of for their characteristics once that happens, and that ‘first they came for the Jews’ is now applicable to their side - the European West is in danger.

It is puzzling. It is bizarre that Anti-Semitism now comes from the left, when historically they supported the Jewish community (Battle of Cable street).

The left should look at what happened in Iran when the left aligns themselves with Islamists. It didn't end well.

OP posts:
GeneralPeter · 05/10/2025 22:19

Eskarina1 · 05/10/2025 17:54

There's too much noise on all sides. You either have to be pro Israel, believe in evil islamists plotting to take over the world and accept a UN declared genocide as an acceptable response to terrorism or you have to be anti semitic.

Calling me a useful idiot for not believing in a giant Islamist conspiracy theory any more than I believe in a giant zionist one doesn't convince me. Especially when Israel have just invited Tommy Robinson to speak to them as a leader in the fight against Islam. Or when president Trump genuinely posted a "Trump Gaza" video with golden statues of himself in an AI holiday destination. I remember the devastation when Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated, my mother cried, and i remember the fear when Netenyahu took power. The situation is incredibly complex and by trying to force a singular good vs evil narrative it's radicalising people.

As a really articulate Rabbi said recently, if you tell people that objecting to genocide is anti semitism then you are saying Jews are pro genocide, which is a ridiculous assertion. And one that is massively actively contributing to the rise in anti semitism.

You strike me as someone who wants to think of themselves as fair-minded.

I think a lot turns on the charge of genocide. It’s very hard to have any sympathy with a genocidal regime, becuase the word bakes in intent. That’s why it’s so powerful and so contested.

I read the landmark Amnesty report from last year in detail. I don’t want to pick my views on such a morally crucial issue according to a tribe. I expect you feel the same.

That report convinced me that what Israel is doing is not genocide, because Amnesty essentially says it is not. It changed the way I saw the whole argument.

The report makes clear in a careful and technical language that under the normal legal and linguistic standards Israel’s actions were not genocide. Yet the report argued that a different, lower, standard should apply, that would justify the label.

I think that is wrong and dangerous. I don’t think we should decide the verdict first and then shift the definitions to justify it.

Because just as a correct charge of genocide simplifies moral calculus, so a false one does too. I doubt one in a hundred people who cite the Amnesty have read it. They, reasonably, think “if Israel’s motivation is to wipe out the Gazan people, I don’t need to know any more.”

It’s a misleading headline finding that hijacks a word we really need to mean what it means. One that shouldn’t be trivialised. If Amnesty thought their findings would be as damning without the label then they should have made them without the label. The purpose of using that word was to add the most powerful sting in the area Amnesty itself found not justified.

If you, like me, think what makes genocide especially abhorrent is intent, then I’d ask you to reflect on what it would mean to label and treat as genocide things that lack that element. If would in my view be a huge moral distortion. I’d then encourage you to go and read what the report actually finds.

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 23:21

GeneralPeter · 05/10/2025 22:19

You strike me as someone who wants to think of themselves as fair-minded.

I think a lot turns on the charge of genocide. It’s very hard to have any sympathy with a genocidal regime, becuase the word bakes in intent. That’s why it’s so powerful and so contested.

I read the landmark Amnesty report from last year in detail. I don’t want to pick my views on such a morally crucial issue according to a tribe. I expect you feel the same.

That report convinced me that what Israel is doing is not genocide, because Amnesty essentially says it is not. It changed the way I saw the whole argument.

The report makes clear in a careful and technical language that under the normal legal and linguistic standards Israel’s actions were not genocide. Yet the report argued that a different, lower, standard should apply, that would justify the label.

I think that is wrong and dangerous. I don’t think we should decide the verdict first and then shift the definitions to justify it.

Because just as a correct charge of genocide simplifies moral calculus, so a false one does too. I doubt one in a hundred people who cite the Amnesty have read it. They, reasonably, think “if Israel’s motivation is to wipe out the Gazan people, I don’t need to know any more.”

It’s a misleading headline finding that hijacks a word we really need to mean what it means. One that shouldn’t be trivialised. If Amnesty thought their findings would be as damning without the label then they should have made them without the label. The purpose of using that word was to add the most powerful sting in the area Amnesty itself found not justified.

If you, like me, think what makes genocide especially abhorrent is intent, then I’d ask you to reflect on what it would mean to label and treat as genocide things that lack that element. If would in my view be a huge moral distortion. I’d then encourage you to go and read what the report actually finds.

Edited

Thank you for a considered and nuanced approach. Far too few people analyse the facts critically, let alone read around them.

People have taken sound bites of their choosing ('genocide' being one of these), and used these to justify Anti-Semitism in the UK and persecution of the British Jewish community.

OP posts:
LadyPiglet · 05/10/2025 23:34

Longingdreamer · 05/10/2025 21:24

It is puzzling. It is bizarre that Anti-Semitism now comes from the left, when historically they supported the Jewish community (Battle of Cable street).

The left should look at what happened in Iran when the left aligns themselves with Islamists. It didn't end well.

Antisemitism and the left has a complex history stretching back to the 19th century nascent socialist movements. Some had a great deal of antisemitism, and others much less so.

Two principal reasons, I'd suggest, the first being that left-wing politics inherited a lot of Christian framing, even when not explicitly religious. More significantly, though, Jewish people have tendes to have had a complex position in relation to the class system in any given society, and often didn't fit neatly into the ranks of the working class/proleteriat or the middle or the upper middle classes, due to their historic "outsider" status. And left-wing thought was until recently framed in class terms.

Beachtastic · 07/10/2025 22:33

HelenaWaiting · 05/10/2025 18:06

@Eskarina1
The Trump Gaza video was satire which people wrongly took seriously. The articulate Rabbi is simply wrong. Genocide has a clearly defined legal definition. As wrong as Netanyahu's actions in Gaza are, they do not constitute genocide and I suspect that the term is being used because of its link to the Holocaust. The statement "objecting to genocide is anti semitism then you are saying Jews are pro genocide" is not only illogical, it is juvenile reasoning.

It's not just illogical and juvenile, it is deliberate gaslighting and part of Hamas's DARVO tactics since their barbaric attacks 2 years ago.

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