to say it takes more than hard work/good education to get a well paid job?

[ruethewhirl]

Not a TAAT but inspired by various comments I've being seeing around MN lately, that are making me increasingly angry for all sorts of reasons.

I feel like I keep reading lately, pretty much on any thread that touches on benefits/benefit claimants/financial hardship, that if people aren't wealthy or at least solvent, they 'only have themselves to blame'. They should have worked harder, apparently. They should have studied harder. They should get a second job (even if they are already spending most of their waking hours at their first). They aren't interested in 'bettering themselves', apparently.

Which is not only staggeringly insulting to people doing the less rewarding jobs which the 'should have worked harder' brigade would probably turn their noses up at doing, but also ... do the people who say these things really not understand that people have varying skills, talents/life circumstances and physical/mental ability levels, and that some will never be able to access certain career paths regardless how ambitious they are or how hard they work, because the playing field is simply not level in the way they seem to assume it is? That many, many people with lower paying jobs are already working very hard simply to put food on the table with little to no prospect of things ever getting better?

To be clear, I am not saying there aren't people out there who are feckless, people who don't try hard enough/work hard enough (or didn't do so at school/uni/college wherever), people who are gaming the benefits system. Of course there are people who fit those stereotypes, it's an unpalatable fact of life and always will be. I'm not suggesting genuine scroungers should be allowed to get away with it. But imo some of the 'I worked hard, what's your excuse?' types who frequent certain threads on here really do not know what they are talking about on this topic, and the tendency on these threads to tar the genuinely striving with the same brush as the grifters is increasing. We seem to be heading right back to Victorian times and I dread to think where it will leave the genuinely needy if it continues.

Besides which... what about those occupying the less well-paid roles in the care sector, the NHS, social services etc? Some of those roles are shockingly badly paid, especially given the demands of the work. Are those who occupy them because they want to help others, to give something back to society, simply not trying hard enough either?

I'm probably wasting keystrokes here, though, because some people just don't want to see that hardship can exist through circumstances that are totally beyond a person's control. They've worked hard and done well so that means everyone can. Hard work = wealth and success, so apparently anyone unsuccessful/not wealthy has simply not worked hard enough and is the author of their own misfortune. Apparently.

AIBU to think this is claptrap and that some people simply do not know what they are talking about on this subject?

My main issue with the “everyone can work hard and achieve X” argument really is that SOMEONE has to do the “bad” jobs otherwise everything collapses really.

Someone has to be in Asda stacking the shelves so that everybody can go do their food shop, someone has to be the bus driver so that others can get to work/shops/doctors, someone has to do the minimum wage admin work at the hospital so that they can allocate appointments, someone has to work in the care homes and nurseries doing the “basic” jobs to look after those people, there has to be someone waitressing at the restaurant/pulling pints at the pub/serving popcorn at the cinema otherwise all of those places close.

They may be seen as the low skilled jobs and the less glamorous jobs but the world would look very different without them!

TBH I think you see both.

‘I did it why can’t you’ - being one component yes.

but I also feel like I see a lot of - ‘I can’t possibly do that, it’s not for people like me, you are where you are just because of privilege’, which I don’t agree with either.

I think the specific points around benefits etc can be mean yes (and indeed, some people are disabled and cannot work) - but, you do also see a lot of learned helpless, people saying they can’t possibly work while they have young kids etc.

And tbh more generally - there’s been a huge rise in people claiming welfare benefits, most people’s costs are going up, and yet tax rates are increasing (and likely to increase further). People are very exasperated.

I read today that 45% of working age adults use more in benefits that they pay in tax. Thats a number that is growing. That isn’t a feasible model for the long term - plus a growing number of pensioners.

Both are true.

a lot of the lower paying jobs used to be the sort of jobs teens and young adults would have before progressing on - waiting on tables, bar work, etc. teens under 18 basically can’t get jobs like that any more and they can be tricky to find even for young adults.

I think theres an element of delusion as well. So,e people just aren’t capable of some jobs. There is no way in hell I’m smart enough to be a nuclear physicist. I don’t think anyone should be berated for doing the best with what they have. That does mean though working a full time job if you are physically capable of doing so. If someones moaning they don’t have anything but they don’t do anything then meh.. if someone is working their ass off and they are struggling then I have a lot of sympathy.

I think there’s a pattern. Anyone working in a benefits office will know there’s a pattern of circumstances that mysteriously only affect benefits claimants. Those working in recruitment will know the vast majority of min wage workers aren’t very educated, disbarring those who did stupid degrees with no connections to get a job after uni. There are of course exceptions and outliers but it is a very well established and well researched fact that education unilaterally improves your prospects so teaching your kids to stop backchatting teachers and start doing some schoolwork will go a long way to improving their life chances. And it’s also well known that most people in low paid caring roles are not doing it to give back or because they give half a crap about people, they do it as they don’t have a lot of options. There are always outliers but these are the patterns. So yes, education and working hard are the generally agreed upon ways out of poverty as backed by extensive worldwide research. People who only want to do 6 hours a week and who have two GCSEs are not likely to ever make six figures (despite what scammy pyramid schemes and fake coaches say).

I don't like that salary is seen as a marker of how "good" you are, or your success.

I work in the NHS in a fairly niche role, I couldn't do it anywhere else. It has a ceiling for salary based on the banding of the role. I'm not a traditional "registered professional" so my progress is also limited in other NHS roles.

I make a tangible, life changing difference to my patients so I feel pretty successful in that sense. I also have a First Class hons degree and consider myself an intelligent person who is capable of many types of roles. Unfortunately, many would just look at my pay and make assumptions about my abilities....

It's disingenuous to talk as if all industries have the same potential for "climbing the ladder" - they just don't.

I think th ebigger problem is that all those low paid jobs that still need to be done, are not economically viable anymore.

I am not English. I remember when I moved to this country being really pleasantly surprised by how people in relatively basic jobs could still live a pretty good life. Sure, they weren't living in the big fancy houses or taking expensive holidays, but my sense was that people weren't worrying as much about feeding their children or being able to pay rent.

The reality is that if I look at the job I was doing and the rent I was paying in my first few years here - very junior manager level in a not-well paid profession, peoople doing that job today would be earning very similar to what I was earning then, but the cost of the flat I was living in is significantly higher. I just looked at apartments in the area I was living - I used to pay £800 for a one bedroom flat on the first floor. I just looked online - a flat on the ground floor in that building (admittedly with a small terrace) is currently £1,800 to rent per month.

To be completely clear here, I'm not disregarding or devaluing education. I am a graduate and feel very strongly about the importance of education, which maybe didn't come across in my OP. It can make a massive difference - but a lot of young people have to be guided towards the right subject area to give them the right foundations to build on, and not all of them have supportive/encouraging adults in their lives.

Where I do think young people have been let down is in the area of vocational training. I realise this training does still exist, but imho it's been devalued and sidelined somewhat by the scrapping of the old polytechnics, because now they're all supposed to aspire to uni regardless of whether they're actually uni material. I think according the old polys university status was one of the worst decisions in the history of our education system. So many young people are just not academic but do have practical skills that can be usefully developed. Not only has this devalued university degrees somewhat, I feel it's left a lot of young people unsure of their next steps and feeling inadequate because they're not academic and have never had any proper encouragement to develop their vocational skills and think about where those skills might take them.

I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier. The way some people talk about how everyone should be 'bettering themselves' aka striving for highly paid white collar jobs, I do wonder if they've stopped to think about this at all (not least the fact that presumably there'd be more competition for their own jobs... 🤔)

It also saddens me that some people seem to think that there's only one way to better oneself and that's by earning a lot.

Absolutely. Everyone's feeling the squeeze and I think that's what's leading to a lot of the back-biting.

People saying ‘who’ll do the lower paid jobs’- there’ll always be someone just out of school/ college/ who wants to do something less stressful etc etc (from someone on a checkout because it’s local so easier than a commute etc etc). In years to come I’ll either still be here or be gone to something that means I don’t work every bank holiday and miss at least one school play/ birthday etc!!! (Yes I love my job but my god I’d love a bit more flexibility!!!)

The cost of living has become so high

before people could get by on modest salaries with fairly run of the mill jobs

mind you I still think some people are irresponsible

This is what I believe as well

I know I've already replied to you but I'm returning to this as I've been reflecting on parts of your post. What is this 'pattern of circumstances that mysteriously only affect benefits claimants' that you mentioned?

And re the end bit of your post, presumably you do realise that in today's economic climate someone can be educated and work hard and still be struggling? Yes, education (or training) and hard work are obviously the best way out of poverty, but these days they're no failsafe.

Depends what you consider a well paid job. My mate has at the age of 50 just been accepted on a free gov funded training course to learn to drive 60t articulated dump trucks on HS2. Two weeks training at a full time boot camp and then he'll be onsite learning the job.

Lots of ADT drivers are making £60k on contract work so he'll be sorted once he has a bit of experience - loads of companies advertising for drivers atm. He only got made redundant a month ago and has absolutely no experience in this area whatsoever. Hasn't cost him a penny.

Someone has to be in Asda stacking the shelves so that everybody can go do their food shop, someone has to be the bus driver so that others can get to work/shops/doctors, someone has to do the minimum wage admin work at the hospital so that they can allocate appointments, someone has to work in the care homes and nurseries doing the “basic” jobs to look after those people, there has to be someone waitressing at the restaurant/pulling pints at the pub/serving popcorn at the cinema otherwise all of those places close.

My mate gets paid £19 p/h and works 48hrs a week as a bus driver. With o/t and bonus he's on £50k. That's hardly minimum wage.

Average trade salary was also £10k higher than average graduate salary last article I read. Young tradespeople get on the property ladder three years earlier than graduates on average and don't have any student debt.

You don't need to be academic to make lots of money. I was talking to a joiner on HS2 the other day and he's making £1500 a week. He didn't look 25yo. Also spoke to a slinger (directs the tower cranes) who was in his mid 20s and he had accepted a job as a trainee crane driver and would soon be on £53k.