To reject trainee surgeon?

[RunningThroughMyHead]

My young child is on the wait list for eye surgery. It’s a complex surgery with risks of blindness or other permanent eye issues if not done correctly. These risks have been explained to us but the benefits outweigh the risks.

My husband took him to the last appointment and the surgeon explained that a student surgeon may undertake all or part of the surgery under his supervision. My husband nodded along as far as I can tell.

Whilst I fully understand that healthcare professionals need to practice, perhaps selfishly, I don’t want my son practiced on. I wouldn’t forgive myself if something happened and I want someone well experienced to do the full surgery.

AIBU to request/insist on this?

I think it’s natural to be cautious when told a trainee surgeon may be performing the procedure, especially if it’s on your child. Some of the responses on here are very harsh and assume everyone would know the ins and outs of how these things work and what an actual ‘trainee surgeon’ is.

They are however right to say that it’s fairly standard practice and there will be a surgeon experienced in the procedure supervising. It sounds as if they either didn’t explain it very well or your DH was a bit blindsided by it all and didn’t take it in. I’m sure they will be happy to discuss it further and address any concerns you have.

Hi there
Just thought i would add my personal experience. I had eye surgery in april and i was seen by a very well experienced ophthalmologist and their protege(sorry for incorrect spelling and i dont mean anything negative by this word) and i have to say the experience i received was exceptional.
After the initial appointment i was seen by the protege several times due to the complexity of the case and all the different scans etc needed before surgery(and everything was checked with the boss while i was there) and was informed they would be doing the op under the strict guidance of the qualified ophthalmologist. I was told at every appointment etc that there was a very big risk of them having to remove the eye completely but they would do everything they could to save it and thankfully through the expertise and guidance from her boss the outcome was great. I was nervous obviously as the thought of waking up without my eye was scary... but i saw it as a positive that the protege was being watched like a hawk in surgery and the relationship they had between themselves was clear to see from the first appointment that i believed her boss would not have let them go ahead unless they had complete faith in their abilities.

Because it's Mumsnet and people love to stick the boot in.

I hope your son's op goes well, it really will be fine, they wouldn't let anyone operate on him who they weren't confident about.

What a spectacularly unhelpful thing to say to a concerned mother. Could you imagine not being at the hospital while your child was operated on? Some of the meanness on here is baffling.

A trainee will probably still be a highly experienced surgeon, just perhaps not yet completed all final exams. It’s not going to
be a medical student.

You can refuse to consent to them carrying
out the op but I am not sure it extends to a
right on insisting someone else does it.

You want to call the shots, you go
Private and pay.

Being a manager somewhere in the UK, in some medical field, doesn’t mean you know what is planned or going to happen for my child in his hospital with his condition in his eye.

I’ve not been rude at all! I’ve had a lot of rude responses from people who clearly just want to dig at someone.

If you’re an NHS manager, can I ask where your compassion and care towards a mother is? There’s literally no point in calling me names, saying I’ve been this and that when all I asked is if I’m being unreasonable wanting the most qualified and experienced practitioner performing complex surgery on my young child.

Call me what you want, but it will be me looking after you, keeping your ventilator ticking over, adjusting the rate so you don;t fight it and become tired, keep your infusions going, so you have a blood pressure so your brain is perfused, wipe your skin when you defacate yourself, fight tooth and nail for your dignity and for your plan to be maintained, comfort your relatives, hold your hand, respond to the changes the Dr hasn't noticed, but yes I am the arsehole!

OP, people are being rude to you because calling a 35 year old resident surgeon with many years of experience “a student” just because they don’t yet have a CCT is incredibly demeaning.

Just as if I came to your place of work and called you “some little secretary” and demanded to only deal with one of the partners, it would be very rude.

Thank you. Luckily I’m old and ugly enough to realise that the unkind responses say more about them than me. I literally just want the best care for my child. If people want to try to make it something it isn’t, then that’s on them.

@IneedtheeohIneedtheeeveryhourIneedthee what an unkind person you are.

You work for the NHS OP?

I’ve said YANBU because I think your feelings are valid. What I would say is, the supervising consultant may not even be in the room if another (qualified) consultant completed the surgery. It could be one of their team instead. So whilst I totally understand where you’re coming from, potentially your DC is in a better position having a senior consultant overseeing a procedure being completed by a student (more experience in the room in totality).
My main questions would be focused on understanding the definition of student - I.e what stage of training are they at? (1st yr med student vs almost qualified consultant). Please don’t jump me for using the wrong terms MN 😬

Have you called a private hospital and asked about their prices?

Thanks for sharing your story, I’m so pleased your eye was saved. That must have been extremely scary.

Can you imagine trying to do your job, treating patients, when you have an unqualified person (who isn't even the patient) wandering around asking questions, doubting your experience and refusing to accept any reassurance. Yes, when you have dozens of others under your care too - as you don't exist in that hospital just for one person (who again, isn't even the patient).

Your less likely to be able to cover up something going wrong if you've got a registrar involved in the operation, who knows how the procedure should be done, with up to date knowledge, and can ask questions. As well as someone to problem solve with if its more complex.

With a registrar (obviously with enough experience), you've also got someone doing the surgery who has to show they are good enough, has to show precision and control, has to show they know what they are doing, have correct technique etc. Compared to a consultant alone who no one is keeping in check.

Students actually can be better imo. It was a student that went over the lead consultants head with my brother and saved his life, it was a newly qualified doc with me that looked beyond the year of misdiagnosing my ovarian cancer as IBS by her colleague that saved mine. I think the newly qualified and still learning docs can be sometimes the best, not at all complacent!

Understand your worries but I think rest easy and wish your son a successful op and a super-speedy recovery when you are ready.

She literally hasn't done any of that. She's asking on Mumsnet. Not everyone understands the ins and outs of the medical field, and it's really unhelpful to turn on them when they ask a few basic questions to try to gain that understanding.

Very true, thank you for this.

I understand where you are coming from as well op but what I would say is I had said the same on a form before my c section and then it turned out there was a trainee there anyway - I went with it because I didn't want to single her out and tbh my mind was elsewhere in the moment.

Out of everyone in the room she was the most compassionate and attentive and she did an excellent job.

So I basically don't think there is a right or wrong answer - you need to weight it up overall but every single surgeon will have needed to do this at some point in their career and as others have said they will only be doing it if they are deemed ready to do it and it will be weighed up in the context of any risks. If you're worried about it you could request more information to discuss it so you can ask questions. Or if it doesn't feel right for you then just say no.

I had a very rare knee operation a few years ago carried out by a top surgeon. Before the surgery I was asked if a fellow doctor could also be present and potentially do part of the surgery. I understood this was because my surgery was rare and opportunities for the other doctor to learn would be few and far between. I agreed and all was fine. I have to be honest though, I would admittedly be much more weary of this happening if it was my child undergoing the operation rather than myself. It’s one thing to make this decision for yourself but a whole other thing making the decision on behalf of your child.

My son had eye surgery earlier this year funnily enough and in your shoes I’m not sure what I would have said. I think I would have agreed to it, but maybe it’s one of those situations where you don’t know how you’d react unless it happened to you?

What procedure are they actually having done?

As a PP said it's fairly usual for a less experienced ophthalmologist to be supervised by an consultant.

If everyone says no to this, we will never have any experienced surgeons in the future and operations may not be performed at all. I agree with other posters that 2 heads are better than 1.

Sorry you are getting such a hard time OP, I think most mums would understand why you are worried about the situation. Some of the posts on here seem to imply we should all just shut up and question nothing when it comes to our revered national health service.

In what? 🙂

I would feel just like you OP, but consider the fact that in a few operations time the same trainee could be flying solo - on paper better, but I'd probably choose the option where they're nearly done but still supervised.