Am I making parenting much harder than it needs to be?

[Polyestered]

several incidences over the last few weeks watching our friends and how they parent, who seem to enjoy their children a lot more and be more relaxed. All small things but when added together I’m wondering if I’m doing this wrong.

we find parenting incredibly intense and limiting when out and about, to the extent where we barely went anywhere non childy during the toddler years as I found it too stressful. Ours are now just turned 5 and 3

examples - out at a pub/ restaurant (does have a play area but is a “naice” holiday resort type gastro pub / quite pricey. Letting their children stand on the bench seats (fabric cushions/ dirty shoes) and climb over the benches to other empty tables. Letting them set up their toys on empty tables. Different friends/ different restaurant, allowing 5 and 7 year olds in the bar without an adult to play on the pool tables/ games machines. Adults waiting to play, no moving the children off to allow the paying customers on. Another friend/ place - sat outside, started showering and child got up, carrying their own plate and drink (age 5, china plate full of food, dropping peas all over the floor as he marched inside) “I’m going to sit here as it’s raining!”just walked into the restaurant and sat down, without asking any waitress who then had to ask them to move as the table was reserved. I find it so challenging as my children just want to copy the others and I’m constantly nagging them, whereas everyone else is just relaxed and enjoying a drink.

I genuinely don’t AIBU because I had a strict upbringing where children were not to be seen or heard and even now struggle with making myself as small and unimposing as possible. I don’t know if I’m teaching my children they don’t deserve to make noise or take up space, I feel I’m constantly nagging them.

Have you read all of the OP's posts? I don't think it comes across like that TBH, not when you read the follow up posts.

I think there's a bit of truth in it. I have come to realise that I am a more than averagely anxious person myself, and I may have transferred some of that to her. On the other hand, her older brother is not anxious at all, and he was treated the same way. I think in hindsight I would have been a little less polite, a little less insistent on waiting your turn etc, as it often isn't reciprocated and then your child is the one that just gets constantly pushed to the back. I would maybe have tried to teach her to stand her ground more.

Incidentally, she is also ASD, which may account partly for the anxiety, but in contrast to other PP, I wouldn't have said she was a difficult baby/toddler, other than in having a distinct aversion to sleep!

I think you need to find out the parenting style that fits with your values. You find your parents style too overbearing and your friends too permissive - so don’t aspire to be your friends. But do what feels right to you and your values.
Part of that sounds like overcoming having always had to be ‘small’ to be accepted by your parents.
Good luck changing things - hard but worth it!

Thank you - I’ve been hugely guilty of things like this too. When my first was small, I realised I was massively over compensating to minimise other children’s distress, for example taking toys off my child to give to others. I know that was wrong, I was just so used to putting others needs above mine (not in a good way, I’m not bragging here) I just didn’t even realise I was doing it. I have changed this and I know it was wrong. I thought things had improved and settled and we were towing the right line but then these incidences have thrown me.

i actually don’t know where the “normal” line is. As I said, my friends children went into the bar alone to play, and I had to say “no you can’t go without an adult” to mine, and my friend thought it was safety related. It’s not that, I just feel 5 is too young to trust her to behave and not be a nuisance (not her fault, just standard 5yo behaviour)

but these are close friends who have listened to my concerns about my eldest, and given advice, and always seemed to be “doing parenting better”

I agree. This is extreme on both sides.

I do think sometimes I am too worried or aware of what other people will think so step in maybe too early to stop things when actually it would be fine for them to continue. Not your examples, but I am trying to care a bit less about what some hypothetical random person might think and let them be kids and realise it’s okay if they are doing kid stuff.

I wonder if you find parenting overly intense/limiting because you have a child who needs to be kept on a much tighter rein with the rules incredibly clear.

Some of the examples given feel a bit inconsiderate to me - the child just announcing they are going to eat inside doesn't seem quite right, for example, but I wonder if the parents let that happen knowing that when the waitress said to the child "I'm sorry but this table is reserved" they would come back to the parents' table.

They might have also expected the adults waiting to use the pool table etc to ask the children to stop.

I know some people would definitely NOT find this OK but some people would say that's perfectly reasonable - it takes a village etc and it's fine for other adults to communicate with children as long as the children are respectful and listen.

My older children are ND and that just wouldn't have worked with them - if DS2 had decided that HE was sitting on a table then a waitress would not have dissuaded him, at least not without an embarrassing scene. So I have to be really clear with him what's acceptable and what isn't, I can't leave it up to somebody else, I can't be flexible and say OK this time there are loads of spare tables so it's fine, but another time it's more busy so you need to sit with us, it wouldn't make sense to him - he needs it to be a consistent rule which applies every time.

I have noticed this a bit, not with the same examples but sometimes I'll call DS in to sort of chill and tone it down a bit at a much earlier point than other children's parents do. But if I let him get to the level of loud/energetic that they are, if I tried to rein it in and ask him to calm down, he would just get louder. Whereas they can ask their children to calm down at a louder point and they do.

A couple we're really close with had kids around the same time as us. They were very laid back in terms of parenting, I used to find it a bit embarrassing going out to eat with them when the DC were small as their two would be running riot and mine would be looking at me as if to say "how come they're allowed to get away with that??" The thing is our friends didn't seem to notice or care that people on other tables were clealry annoyed or judging them, and I sort of envied them because I was always so worried about what people thought, always dreading one of mine having a strop in public, that it was hard to relax and enjoy myself. Over time, I learned to relax and let go a little more. Over time our friends started to realise they'd made a rod for their own back as their kids got older and their defiance couldn't pass for cute or spirited anymore, so they became a bit more boundaried. The kids are now a lot older and all lovely and generally very well behaved but have their moments, like all kids. I suppose what I'm saying is that if I had my time again I'd aim for a a middle ground between being anxious and hyper-vigilant about my kids behaving in public, and not giving a shit.

I don't enjoy eating out with my children ever really, because I'm not willing to allow any of the things you are mentioning your friends do. I'm also a secondary school teacher and have views about the type of kids who emerge from overtly permissive parents! My kids are nearly 5 and 2, so similar to yours. I've never wanted to allow screens at meals which I think would be easier, but it's just something I've never wanted to do. I would never judge other parents for allowing a kid to sit down and not bother others watching quiet telly, but would judge e.g. the pool table thing. Aware others feel differently and perhaps would see the desire to squash your kids' wants to please others ridiculous. I just see it as teaching consideration to others. I find society in generalhideously individualistic and selfish....

My second child is also MUCH more chilled. There was a long spell with the eldest where we never ate out at all. Now we keep it pretty quick, and in line with the times the kids actually want to eat (also too early to piss off most adults as the other people there generally have kids) and I take stickers etc. tomorrow we are going out with family for a birthday to a nice place, and I've bought a small Lego kit for the eldest and Duplo kit for the youngest and this will keep them occupied. Often pick pubs with a play area and take turns. Helps that there are other kids in the family and all adults feel similarly and take turns entertaining the kids). You can't really have fully adult conversations which dont include them (endless I spy etc.

Only really socialise with other families who have relatively similar parenting styles to ours and kids of similar ages!

Totally agree.

There’s definitely a balance. You sound shocked that a 5yo would be trusted with his own ‘china’ plate. My children have used and been trusted with regular glassware and dinner plates etc.. since 2yo. we’ve never shied away from a nice restaurant, or museums etc… if they were overtired and silly then we’d leave early, but it’s an opportunity to spend time as a family, to teach them what’s expected and help mould them as individuals.

Its not good to ignore them when you’re out so you can have a drink, nor is it necessary to avoid going out altogether.

I don't let my children do anything your describe here. It sounds like lazy parenting. However, I don't think raising well behaved children has to be intense or take away any enjoyment either.

We are pretty laid back, but have clear boundaries. DC were raised with lots of outdoor time, and we travelled a lot including smart restaurants, smart houses and hotels when they were small. Still do!

I allowed them real glasses and china from 2 ish years old. They were allowed to paint pictures on the kitchen table, do play doh in the sitting room, shoot nerf guns in the house. They climbed on our furniture and ran riot in the park. I allowed them to “train” the dogs, to learn the consequences of not closing gates to the yard etc.

they also knew not to interrupt adults, to eat what they were given - and if they didn’t like it not to make a song and dance, just politely and quietly leave it to one side. They still know now when I say “ enough, thank you” that the rough play stops and that if they decide to make cupcakes without asking I don’t expect to come into a bomb site in the kitchen.

You Can be fairly relaxed and still not let your kids be a nuisance to other people. For us it was loud as you like at home, and well behaved in public.

I agree with this.

I'm not sure why you think that it has to be intense and stressful

You tell your children "no" and give them some colouring or reading to do, if they're bored sat waiting for food or whatever

If you'd like them to be able to carry crockery without dropping, practice at home. Dropping crockery doesn't have to be stressful though. Its just a "whoops, help mummy clear this mess up please"

Oh, the OP's ignoring the posts suggesting they're stealth boasting.

Which rather suggests they are

We were like you when the children were younger, boundaries were tight and we were always watching. I remember MIL remarking one day that we make it look it easy and it seems our children are especially well behaved but if you really watch us with them at least one of us was watching them like a hawk, stepping in before trouble could break out, quietly parenting the children.
Now we are benefiting for all the hard work when they were younger because they ARE noticeably better behaved than their peers and are very easy to parent. If you let them do all sorts when they are young you are absolutely shooting yourself in the foot long term.

OP suggest you read the book Calm Parents, Happy Kids by Lisa Markham

It's brilliantly clear on what you want to aim for - neither authoritarian parenting (which is sounds like you got) nor permissive parenting (which you fear). But authoritative parenting.

And how to do it.

And why so many of our parents didn't / couldn't.

I found reading it pretty therapeutic too.

She’s not. Read the rest of her replies you pillock and try to have some compassion.

YABU for thinking YABU- YANBU to teach your children how to behave in public. I would not let mine behave in any of the ways you describe your friends doing. Keep doing what you’re doing and don’t let poor standards of others worry you or rub off on your own.

I think your friends sound a bit permissive, but honestly I don't blame them for occasionally prioritising enjoying their lunch over having brilliantly behaved kids - it's tiring stuff and sometimes you just want a glass of Rose and a ten minute conversation with no interruptions.

Like you I value having well behaved children, but I'm also very devoted to giving them a varied and rich cultural life. So I've had to try really hard to spend part of each weekend in a space where they can behave however they like and I won't apologise for anything or tell them to stop (like the park, where they can run, be as loud as they want, throw things etc) and contrast that with places like galleries and museums where I do have to set boundaries about what you can and can't touch.

I've found it's helpful to work out what you personally value and care about, rather than what other people judge you for. So for instance, I don't use screens outside of our house where we have a TV, so there have been times where my child has been loud (not crying) in a restaurant, and I'm not sorry for that. If she's excited briefly I don't shush her, where my parents would have been mortified if I'd made any audible noise in a restaurant. Similarly if she wants to dip her napkin in water and 'wash' the table, I'm chill with that, I just clear it up before we leave. Honestly whatever you do, someone is going to judge you, so you really have to find what feels right to you.

Hi OP - I really feel for you. Our first has always been extremely challenging and the idea of taking him for a chill coffee as a baby or toddler would have been absolutely not worth the drama. I found it interesting you say this traumatised you - I'd never thought of it like that but can totally see where you're coming from. I think having a highly sensitive, reactive and/or oppositional child can really affect the way you hold parenting in the longer term. I feel like I'm on much higher alert than a lot of my other parent friends. Constantly. I don't think it's something that parents with more easygoing children can really understand (I can say that as I do have another child who is largely easygoing - though not without his moments). So yes I think like most things in life, the best way is the middle way. But with the experiences you've had as a child and a parent, it's understandable to find it not as simple as that. Not sure if this helps but DC1 has recently been diagnosed with ASD.

i think some of what you have described sounds a bit permissive. But in the context of the childhood you have described and the fact that sounds like you have a challenging child (I have one of those) then it does sound like things could br easier. I really recommend this book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Wish-Your-Parents-Children/dp/0241250994

this. A judgemental boast at that…

I am very aware of my children when we are out and about, especially in restaurants - my husband is more relaxed but basically I think “these diners here are paying a lot of money to be here and I don’t want my two to spoil it for them.”

I am quite uptight, whereas my husband is easier going. Maybe it’s because I really dislike other people’s children. I cannot stand noise, and when I go out for a coffee sans my own, I get fucked off when I hear other people’s kids wailing/misbehaving.

My children are 4 and 11 now, so the worst is over us - but I’m particularly tetchy about meals out. My two have always been brilliant on airplanes - so much so that I took them both long haul as babies/toddlers.

I cannot have misbehaving children. Control your kids or stay at home.

Spot on that this is something people with easygoing straightforward DC can’t really grasp.

People speak to you like you’re an idiot when you seek advice about your child who’s not able to do things the usual way - ‘have you tried sleep training / saying no and meaning it / a sticker chart / consequences?’ OF COURSE I HAVE!! Those were literally the first things I tried! And tried and tried and tried and it still didn’t work.

And that’s the part that does feel traumatising - you never know what’s going to set your DC off but you can be 100% sure that everyone will think it’s a result of your shit parenting.

But most people’s toddlers are watching Paw Patrol, not insisting on rewinding to the same 30 seconds of a nature documentary about crabs over and over again for 5 hours straight and screaming violently when you try to change activity. Most people’s kids don’t ask you to play Judas Priest at top volume to help them fall asleep!

(it was those 2 examples that finally got the GP to refer us to a paediatrician)

It’s hard for anyone to grasp that it’s just as likely that your child is a bit of an outlier as it is that you’re an uncommonly dim and incompetent mother.

I feel very similar to you, I cannot handle my child taking toys of other children, being loud and disruptive in a restaurant and I also avoided taking him places where I knew it would be a very stressful experience. He appears to be much harder work than my friends kids, id look on in shock at them walking into nursery without holding their child's hand as if I did that he'd be off at lightning speed. Things are starting to improve now he's nearly 4 but we are on an ASD pathway and so am I. I could never cope with a second child and find it really bizarre that my friends are having more, they have had a totally different experience to me.