To think that America wasn't that great in the first place?

[malificent7]

I do have lack of historical knowledge but as far as I can tell modern America was formed by white settlers commiting mass genocide of nstive Americans then importing black slaves to do their dirty work and then moaning about there being black people in their country. In a nutshell. Am I wong?

Some modern Americans are pretty awful.

You think all settlers in the US were British?

Nation founded by a bunch of tax dodgers. What could possibly go wrong ?

The US has great power

I think it’s a country that for some has the best of westerners life (what we collectively value in western countries) and the worst it’s a country of extremes in a way that Europe isn’t

for my family who immigrated there it’s been great that have absolutely lived the American dream

Well said as a usa citizen l have been to usa many times and find the country ok , the present set up is political we won't go into that as each country in the world changes , l hope the usa settles to middle of the road stuff . My only concern is the worship of money ad a God seems very strange as l am Christian , to quote worship only one God as l am a jealous God, l am sorry that a familly have lost there husband and father, it's dreadfull William, although l will never return to usa due to age

In that case are you not qualified to speak about anything other than what's happening in America?
You're not aware how enlightening external perspectives can be?

@GleisZwei the OP has literally admitted that she has zero knowledge of the subject

in terms of who is qualified to comment, I miss the days when people didn't just start threads with random nonsense

I remember a lot of your posts @malificent7 because they are often like this.

She's asking for comment from folk who do have knowledge - that's not exclusively those experiencing it from inside.

I've had so many American friends who chose to live abroad because they couldn't cope with the rhetoric that America is great. It's objectively a deeply fucked-up country and has been since its first iteration.

What really boils my piss is how they drag everyone down and call it power. We did similar, we're still complicit and we still can't face the legacy of the empire. You can barely get the average Brit to acknowledge the racism inherent in empire even today. We had a good run of it a few years ago but look how little difference it's made.

I don't think the G in MAGA is harking back to the founding of America or the settlement of the continent, more like the 20th century, when America was the world's superpower, it was wealthy and influential, it's made a lot of goods, its population was relatively wealthy and its entry into both the First and Second World Wars meant that it and its allies won those wars.

A lot of older Americans remember when America and Americans were the envy of the world, when there were jobs for all, when a lot of working class people lived in nice homes in nice suburbs, because the man could get a well-paid blue-collar job that supported his whole family. That era, the 1940s and 1950s, is when Trump was growing up - he remembers those times and I think that's what he wants to try and recreate. America in that era was certainly the envy of much of Europe, which was struggling to get back on its feet after the Second World War, its cities ravaged by bombs, its economies shattered.

But look at America now - it's not the envy of the world any more. It's riven by culture wars and urban decay, its manufacturing and industrial heartland is now called The Rustbelt, it has a disaffected and angry underclass made up of the kind of people who once worked in those factories and mines and mills. The downtown areas of many of America's great cities are full of homeless people who are either drug addicted and/or suffering with mental health problems. It's really not the utopia it once was.

I agree with your post, @ladybirdsanchez

Much of the same can be said for Britain, although the glory days are in the more distant past.

Yes, most 'first world' democracies aren't doing well atm. Look at the recent histories of not just the UK, but also France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece - all struggling with some combination of high levels of unemployment, lack of employment opportunities in many areas, economic stagnation, large welfare bills that burden the state, crumbling infrastructure due to lack of investment, dangerous no-go zones in large urban areas, high levels of immigration and low levels of integration leading to civil unrest, and large levels of disaffection in the general population.

The US has all that too, but salaries and the standard of living there are generally much higher than in the UK for professional working people. I'm a US citizen and the difference between those things is shocking and stark. Most people in this country don't fully appreciate how badly paid they are and the kind of salaries that people in the US are being paid for the same jobs. My DH and I often debate whether we should move back there, because of this.

For those coming from really poor countries years and years ago I think it was life having but it’s been a long time since people
from low incomes or poor backgrounds have been able to achieve the mythical American dream’

NB: I'm descended from lots of genocidal American settlers.

@malificent7 ; is any country in your mind, "great" or ever was "great" ? Can you name one such place?

One thing about Americans is we tend to be optimists, survivors, constructively overcoming Adversity. Focus on opportunities and positive aspects. I always say (broken record) that Trumpism is deeply anti-American because it encourages resentment, especially against people who have been successful, and it thrives on describing problems not opportunities.

Johnson was right to rail against Gloomsters and Doomsters. 'Tis difficult to realise I agree with him about anything, but there it is.

Did I say all?

I totally agree with this.

This is pretty much what JD Vance was alluding to in Hillbilly Elegy. I actually really liked his perspective when I first read it, because he captured that sense of nostalgia for the working-class stability of mid-20th century America. I had high hopes for him… until Trump made him vice president and he seemed to change completely overnight. I still can’t believe he wrote Hillbilly Elegy. He seems like a completely different person now.

Maybe I’m just too easily fooled?

You don't mention any other nationalities.

Well the whole ‘American Dream’ thing, where everyone is meant to come and build their own success, is and always has been a MASSIVE get-out clause.

Why would you need the states help? You help yourself! Sick, poor, out of work? That’s your problem for not chasing the dream hard enough.

American city streets are littered with people for whom there is no safety net. It’s fucking disgustingly inhumane.

I don’t admire very much about how American society is structured, although I like my American friends and colleagues very much; at a societal level it’s brutal and wrong to me.

Yeah, I read that too @EmpressSisi and thought it was interesting and very relevant. I read it during Trump's first term, to try and understand why so many people felt so disaffected. Agree Vance seems to have morphed into some horrible caricature of his former self.

It has aspects of greatness and also the potential to be great.

I have been many times, have more extended family in the USA than any other country and know it’s not a monolith.

Yes it has a dark history that it tries to whitewash and downplay but it has not even been a democracy for 100 years. So still working through its teething issues.

Ditch and French too…and then basically everyone from Europe!

Forget the history: their whole system now is awful and I have no idea why so many don't see it:
No free healthcare, and even those with insurance can easily end up bankrupted by the limitations if they dare to get ill.
Workers rights are virtually non-existent. No maternity rights; little holiday; can be fired at will
Food standards are shockingly bad and Americans are regularly eating substances banned in other countries. Many have very little access to affordable fresh food
And of course the guns. Why the guns?! Such an insane number mass shootings every day that they barely register any more. No one is even suggesting getting rid of them, but even the mention of tighter controls and checks on who has access to guns has half the country up in arms (literally!)

No free healthcare

Nowhere has "free" healthcare. Someone has to pay. However some places are willing to share the burden out.

@ladybirdsanchez Professional people in the US might be doing ok but about 10% of Americans are living in poverty. 17% of American children live in poverty. 11% of people (29 million of them) have been unable to access or afford good healthcare in the last year.

Hispanics earn 70 cents and blacks earn 59 cents for every dollar of income that whites receive.

The suicide rate in the US is 50% higher than in the UK.

The situation for professionals does not represent the whole of America.

Do you feel the same way about Canada op?