Can we discuss 2nd ammendment? Trying to educate myself about US gun laws.

[malificent7]

I was on wikipedia and I was surprised to read that one reason that the US has the 2nd ammendmentbis to arm itself against an armed government. Am I correct?
If so, then surely it would not be so relevant today whereby the government has tanks and bombs eyc. Even the most powerful gun would be useless. In the wild west ot might have been more relevant.

I do get the self defence thing to a certain extent but ifvthere are less guns thete are less armed burglaries surely?

I don’t think the framers of the constitution could have foreseen the technological advancements and massive power of the military for the country they were creating. The idea of defending ourselves against the government is still paramount even if it is unrealistic.

You also can’t discount how much of the United States is still wild. Most of the people I know who own guns use them for either self defense against wild animals or for hunting food.

I am not a fan of the gun culture and I don’t own one, but the animals that regularly come on my property aren’t dangerous enough to be worrisome.

I have been watching Yellowstone which has made me facinated about the formation of the US and keen to learn more.
I can see that wildlife is thriving in the wilderness and bears etc can be a real danger.
Not so much in NYC though where gang violence is a problem and school shootings are a real concern

More than 100 US citizens are shot dead every day and at least 10 of those are under 18.

The weird thing about the 2nd ammendment's application is that it specifically is about a "well ordered militia" - that is, a self-governing organisation of ordinary citizens. I don't see how that justifies the chaos of entirely disordered individual armaments with individual violent people being able to accrue an enormous arsenal for their own power-trip.

A well-ordered militia would be a federation of locally governed democratic groups of respected and steady citizens who could corporately agree on thresholds of maturity and good sense necessary to bear arms, and had the right to withold or withdraw that right from people who shouldn't be armed, that restriction coming not from the government but from the people directly.

There is nothing well-ordered about the current situation of individual armaments in the usa.

The place is still The Wild West.

Sat over here, in the UK, it’s seems almost unconscionable that people are allowed (any people) walk round with guns.. and not just any gun, high-powered semi-automatic guns.

I get people owning a rifle, who live in the wilds… Farmers over here have them, but they have strict controls, and the “type” of gun is regulated.

One school shooting we had over here, the law changed almost the next day, and we’ve never had another.

If you own a gun, you are more likely to be shot … so instead of getting rid of guns, people buy more guns, which makes the whole place more violent.

You see these pictures that Politicians put on thier Christmas Cards, the whole family, in festive jumpers, holding semi-automatic guns … and you have to questions the messaging.

If you have time, this is an interesting (1st of 3!) podcast on the background to the 2nd amendment and the NRA:
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/journey-through-time/id1802085505?i=1000720964260

There's something rather amusing hearing some U.S. commentators arguing that an amendment cannot be questioned or changed.

It is seriously difficult to change an amendment.

My guns bigger than your gun, see me waving it around. You don't have to be Sigmund Freud to understand why guns are so important in US culture. Or, as a first date potential girlfriend said to a suitor when he roared up in his lamborghini, "Gee. I'm sorry your penis is so small °".

“The gun licensing system works well, to prevent absolute loonies from owning guns”

So the regular mass shooting, and daily murders are all committed by rational people ? Even more reason for tighter gun control then.

Plus, you might have rules in place to stop “loonies” (whatever that means) from owning guns legally …. But in a society where there are more guns that people, owning one illegally is not so hard.

If you own a gun, you are more likely to be shot.

Only one country in the world seems to love guns more than life itself.

Our continent is awash in illegal firearms, you can respond to this, of course, but you don’t have to restrict the rights of normal people to accomplish this.

We don’t want to be in a situation where literal criminals are the only ones able to access firearms. At least I don’t.

I suggest you look at the per capita firearm deaths of Central American countries before making such a statement.

On Spotify there’s an excellent podcast explaining the history and influence of the NRA. Journey Through Time, episodes 23, 24 & 25. I learned a lot.

😝 @FastandLoose got there already!

47 school shootings so far this year

Like the 18th? (Prohibition)

More children under the age of 18 in the US die of gun crime than anything else - including illnesses and car accidents.

Unfortunately the US will never give up its 2nd amendment so children will continue dying from gun violence.

When the regular shooting of children doesn't even make people question whether they are right to allow guns there's no hope.

There are around 400 million guns held in the US. If they were banned tomorrow it would take decades to make a difference. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back.

You also can’t discount how much of the United States is still wild. Most of the people I know who own guns use them for either self defense against wild animals or for hunting food.
Farmers are allowed to own guns in the UK but very few other people.

…We aren’t allowed firearms in the UK .. and yep some criminals have them. The chances of me being caught up in a shooting are tiny, a mass shooting at my Daughters school zero.. we (as regular citizens) won’t be caught in a shooting. Unlike the USA, who combat criminals having weapons, by putting more weapons into circulation.

If the system works that well, why are there so many shootings?

The one thing I've learned over the years, during visits to the US, is that this very much a "their trainset" issue.

It doesn't really matter whether as a e.g. European you don't agree with the 2nd or don't understand...it's really a subject for domestic debate and sticking in your oar with a foreign POV, or examples of how it's done in x,y or z doesn't help.

…are we not allowed to talk about any life-threatening laws in any other country, as it’s up to that country to decide?

Shouod we extend that to the restriction of Abortion rights in the US? The oppression of women in Afghanistan, the execution of migrant workers in the UAE?

Not our country, not our problem ?? What a woeful attitude

It used to be easy to own a handgun
in in the UK too.

All you needed was a licence which was a case of filling in a form, not having a criminal record, proving you owned a secure gun cupboard and being a member of a registered gun club.

The USA has something like 200 school shootings a year.

In the UK we had one.

Back in 1996.

We outlawed handguns.

As a result we haven’t had a school shooting in nearly 30 years.

Not being allowed to own a
gun anymore is a price worth paying for all those children’s lives in my (British) opinion.

Many Americans obviously feel differently.

Woeful?

I'm being realistic...It's a subject for debate, sure, just don't expect complete agreement from all posters in the States, and certainly don't expect them to agree that Europe or the UK has got the laws right on this issue.