To be tired of DC not getting tired?!

[champignonhill]

Youngest DC is 5. Always on the go, literally nothing wears them out. You know at parties where the kids are running around solidly for 5 hours and all the adults laugh and say oh they'll sleep well tonight and their kids all fall asleep at 6.30pm? Our DC will still be awake at 10.

We've always had a solid bedtime routine and good sleep hygiene - bath, wind down, books and bed. Eldest takes ages to fall asleep and used to need us in bed with them, but since age 6 has gone to sleep (albeit slowly) by themself. Youngest however WILL NOT stay in bed, let alone go to sleep.

Had a dummy until quite late and we realised when we took it away that it was the only thing helping them sleep. Spent a few months tearing our hair out, then tried melatonin which was amazing and we enjoyed some heavenly evenings of managing to get DC to sleep by 8.30. However, I don't feel comfortable giving the melatonin (gummies/droppers) as I know the things bought from the US are unregulated and there aren't any long term studies on side effects. So... we stopped using them again, only to return immediately to the land of no sleep before 10/11.

So... wise people of Mumsnet, is this just regular 5yo behaviour and we just need to resign ourselves to another couple of years until they're old enough to have hopefully calmed down and stay in bed by themselves, or does this sound OTT even for a lively and active 5yo?

School haven't said anything about hyperactivity or inattentive behaviour, so unsure whether ADHD is likely (although DP has it so we're aware it's a possibility). Eldest sibling is autistic.

For wider context, they don't stop moving EVER. Always climbing, jumping, dancing, doing cartwheels, talking endlessly, very rarely listening. Absolutely lovely and delightful, creative and caring little soul who is wonderful in every way - just very, very tiring!!!

Should add we've tried audiobooks or just being left to read/play quietly but while they're getting better at staying in bed to do both those things and gradually get more tired, they still won't sleep until someone sits with them.

Does sound like my AuDHD child who the psychiatrist prescribes ongoing melatonin for and reassures it’s perfectly safe to do so.

Unfortunately sleep is a nemesis with autism/ADHD. My eldest is like it and has been prescribed melatonin by the doctor. Personally I'd go down the melatonin route, I buy it for myself. But I'm not sure if thats good advice or not - kids need their sleep

Thing is DC doesn't have a diagnosis for ADHD, it's not even something we've considered referring for (don't think you can until they're a bit older?). Feel like a doctor will laugh us out of the surgery if we go in saying our 5yo won't go to sleep at night... but it's honestly driving us up the wall, especially as they're so full on all day long as well. Of course they're awake and full of beans without fail at 7am regardless 🤣

If you are in England you can self refer to CAMHS and see if they will provide any support (for one of my children they have been great but not the others).

Have you spoken to the SENCO at school? It might be worth getting their input as well.

Haven't spoken to school but same DC has issues with toilets which have affected the summer holidays badly and I think are about to affect the start to the new school year as well... so perhaps it's time for a conversation! Same DC gets overwhelmed with emotion easily as well, eg crying at most drop offs, if they see us for a school performance or open morning etc. But generally wonderful reports from teachers (saying that, recently diagnosed autistic eldest had nothing flagged by school either as it was all manifesting at home...).

Sounds like it could be adhd. I suspect the reason the dummy worked was that it allowed sensory input. Try replacing it with something else like white noise, or a compression sheet or weighted blanket or a guided relaxation.

I’ve got one of these too @champignonhill! Lives life at 100 miles an hour, never stops talking and cannot sleep before 10pm (at the earliest!) She’s now 10 and has been this way since pretty much day 1 although she does now sleep in later when she can and will lie in bed reading to get herself to drop off.
We have tried ALL the things but have come to the conclusion that she is just someone who doesn’t need much sleep (a curse now but hopefully a blessing when she’s older!) She’s NT, doing very well academically, has friends and hobbies and is generally a lovely child so we try not to stress about it now and accept that’s just her. I am often in bed before her due to my working pattern and sometimes she tucks me in 🤣

Thank you! White noise / a fan are a constant but don't in themselves help with sleep. Eldest has a weighted blanket, may get another for the 5yo to see if that helps (currently we pile blankets on... when it's not 1000 degrees in our flat!). Mostly they just won't lie still with any of these things, until they're dropping with fatigue - which takes 2.5 hours at least.

Will look into guided meditation!

Thank you! As someone who also doesn't need much sleep and used to also take hours to go to sleep as a child, I realise I only have my genes to blame... 😬😬😬

Can I ask at what age your DD started being able to just stay in bed and eventually go to sleep by herself, without needing input? I realise 5 is still quite young, and our eldest despite having been technically going to bed independently for about 3 years now still has a very complex bedtime routine that takes 90 mins or so... so I may be expecting too much just yet of a younger child.

I know it goes against normal advice, but would they fall asleep in front of a movie/TV?

I would pursue a melatonin prescription if that worked well.

No, sadly neither of my children have ever once fallen asleep in front of the TV. I hear these mythical children do exist 😂 It would 100% be my bedtime technique if so and right now I wouldn't feel bad about it!! DC would be over the moon with telly at bedtime (I'm actually trying to reduce screen time as I will admit that's crept up a bit of late...)

Definitely going to suggest we at least chat to the GP, worst they can do is nothing, right?

If they're in the routine of going to sleep at 10/11 then it's probably not realistic to think that's going to quickly shift to several hours earlier. I'd try keeping them up until their usual sleep time and then gradually shifting that earlier by 10mins each night. Hopefully they'd then go to bed and sleep quickly. I don't see the advantage of putting them to bed early if they don't sleep until after 10pm. But in the evening I'd make it as boring as possible - no TV, no snacks - nothing that makes staying up late exciting! Also agree with others that speaking with your GP is a good idea. Good luck 🤞

Thank you - just to clarify, they were always asleep by 8.30 latest with the dummy (and melatonin) so 10/11 is the unaided sleep time. But yes, I take your point!

If they'd just stay in bed I wouldn't mind the later sleep time. It's the fact we can't even get stuff done that we need to (or heaven forbid have an evening to watch some telly or read!). I realise that's selfish but our relationship really suffers as that's the only time we get together and instead we spend it sitting with the youngest trying to get them to sleep.

Hi, how did you get this prescription please? I’ve tried and tried and finally been put on the waiting list of a sleep clinic and told it’s a LONG wait. Did your GP prescribe it?

If you have tried melatonin and it worked try upping the dietary protein intake. Basically a good piece of meat at every meal. In the body melatonin is made out of tryptophan an amino acid found in protein. You can supplement with tryptophan, but it is better just to up the protein intake (whole foods) as the body can process it better.

Best wishes!

Ah thank you, this is helpful! DC is very fussy with food and doesn't eat a huge range, in meat terms they'll eat sausages, ham, chicken nuggets and cured meats (eg chorizo, salami), maybe beef jerky. Does that all work? Eats plenty of cheese and fromage frais/yoghurt but that's probably it for protein (won't eat beans for instance).

@champignonhill it’s probably only the last two years that we’ve cracked the staying in bed which coincided with her getting a kindle for her 8th birthday and being allowed unlimited reading. Basic routine is no screens after 8pm, shower/bath, in bed by 9, lights out 9.30 but read until whenever. We did go through a few months of multiple toilet visits after 9.30 however! She’s always asleep by 11pm and wakes naturally around 7.30.
It is funny when her bestie sleeps over and takes herself off to bed at 8pm because she can’t keep her eyes open so DD has to creep around so as not to disturb her

Thank you! Reading has helped our eldest massively too and again it was probably around 8. And I think me and both kids can relate to that still being awake when others need sleep feeling! My DP goes to bed early (like by 10) and I can't handle it 😂

It's not selfish at all, but I think sometimes parenting is about short term pain for long term gain. A cliche, and easier said than done I know, but I think if you are able to adjust your mindset and think the next month we're not going to have nice adult evenings because we're going to focus on helping our child sleep, but after that (hopefully) we'll have our evenings back and child will be sleeping earlier.

Also, I saw your post about food - sounds like all the meat is processed, and yogurts can be very high in sugar. No judgement at all - I know how hard it can be to get kids to eat healthy food - but again something you could get advice on from GP as there can definitely be link between a child's diet and behaviour.

Not sure about ADHD but finding it hard to get to sleep or stay asleep, or being a 'night owl' is a classic autistic thing. Kids' magnesium supplements can help surprisingly well if you want to hold off melatonin for as long as possible.

I know, it's awful and I wish they'd eat more but they just won't. They live mostly on pasta and cheese.

Absolutely understand the point about short term gain, I think the thing is we've tried so many things (including when they were previously using a dummy) including trying to bring bedtimes forward slowly, so it feels like we've already had pretty long term pain 😬 But you've definitely helped me see it from a different perspective so will talk to DP about the best approach.

Some kids just need less sleep but at 5 they’re old enough to have a digital clock and know they have to stay in bed between X and Y time, with books/ audio books, quiet toys to entertain them

My DD had a phase like this when she was 5 or 6. We started doing bedtime yoga (it's a thing on YouTube) then instead of just tucking her in I use to give her a hand and foot massage with some baby sleep lotion. Also got some calming lamps to set the mood