AIBU to think children should get free dental treatment

[Angelfire84]

My dentist, like the majority in my area, has recently become private. My DD (13) needs braces and the orthodontist has said she needs to have 4 teeth removed first. I need to pay £420 for her teeth to be removed. AIBU to think children should still be entitled to free dental treatment even if the dentist has gone private. I have tried to get her into a NHS dentist but none of the NHS dentists in my area are taking on new NHS patients.

I did not know this, thank you.

That's shocking.

In theory, yes, but as @MigGril says, dentists don't get enough money back from the government for doing NHS care so as a business can't afford to do it anymore.

To provide free dentistry for all children, presumably tax money needs to be directed from other areas into dentistry and/or taxes need to be increased. As others have said, oral health is extremely important.

You really don't need coaching to pass the UKCAT if you are reasonably intelligent. It's an entry exam required for most medical and dental schools

NHS dentistry does not pay. It doesn't cover the cost of running the practice anymore. The reason practices are dropping their NHS contracts is because the rate at which you have to work to provide NHS care and function as a practice is too high and does not provide a decent standard of care to patients.

And no, private practices should not have to provide free dental care to children. You do not expect any other private business to provide free services to large swathes of the population.

Should the government fund enough NHS care to cover free dental care for all children? Yes. But if a private practice does not have an NHS contract then you can't expect them to provide work for free. That like walking into a private hosptial and expecting them to provide you with free care because you are entitled to it on the NHS.

Well both these students got 3A*s and a B at A Level and are absolutely intelligent but their scores were not good enough as they didnt know what the answers were looking for. If they'd had coaching they would have known.

The dentistry course is massively skewed for private school pupils.

I think about a quarter of dentistry students are private school pupils which is far higher than the percentage thay attend private schools.

There was a study done a while ago into the entries to medicine and dentistry. Dentistry in particular was interesting as in the 80s it was male dominated (95%) and now 60% of places are female! It also has an ethnicity skew too.

The NHS not paying enough is a different story, but theyre not giving state school working class kids a chance.

Jesus. I remember being able to find a dentist easily!

We still have the same dentist which we have used since I was a child, in the same village and thankfully they still do NHS. I couldn’t afford private

I agree that children should get free dental care. I also think that all adults should get free/NHS dental care.

But no you can’t expect dentists (or anyone) to work for free no matter for who. If they are private how can they recoup the cost of seeing all these children? They can’t. They would be working totally for free. That’s obviously not sustainable. Especially because you’ll then get people saying well they should also treat pregnant women for free. Then people on benefits/low income etc. Suddenly only about a tenth of the patients are paying.

Im a hygienist. We once had a woman come in to our fully private practice and had a check up first then a cleaning with me. Check up was £50 and seeing me was £45. Which took an hour of surgery time total. When she was leaving reception told her how much she owed and she said no I’m pregnant you can claim it back from the NHS and she walked out. But it doesn’t work like that obviously. You don’t just contact “the NHS” and they give you money. So both me and the dentist worked for free for half an hour each that day. I already don’t earn anything if a patient cancels or doesn’t show up. Now according to her I should not get paid even when I’m actually working just because she’s pregnant. And people seem to think dentists should work for free just because they see children. It’s ridiculous. The government should sort out NHS dentistry yes absolutely. But no it’s not dentists responsibility to see kids for free no matter what.

@PoshDuckQuarkQuark Tbf, it’s not unusual in dentistry and medicine. Several countries require an aptitude test/entrance exam to take these degrees, because they’re such competitive fields. Even without coaching, applicants can study online and take practice tests- you definitely need to do this tbh.

Some countries also require such tests for law degrees and certain business degrees.

Having just laid out 3.5k to my dentist this is horrific. I’m lucky my 4 all adults now went to a nhs dentist. I had no idea children had to pay there’s no way half the parents would have the cash spare

Exactly. The state of dentistry in the UK is an absolute scandal. Teeth are part of the human body, and as such should be treated like any other part of the body when there is a medical issue with them - by the NHS, via taxation.

If there's something wrong with your heart, or your legs, or your stomach etc, you go to the doctor and get treated without worrying about money. For purely cosmetic issues you go private, as is fair. The same should be true for your mouth and teeth.

Teeth are not some separate zone - dental disease causes huge suffering and can also cause problems in other parts of the body.

Wrong. Orthodontists qualify as dentists and then do further training to become orthodontists. Just like GPs start off receiving the same training as all doctors. Therefore orthodontists are just as qualified to take teeth out, and in fact many dentists believe they should, to minimise errors in the referral process

Actually you are quoting from a study published in 2011! The percentage is falling and has fallen since then and is around 16% now.

The truth is a practice loses money on almost every NHS procedure it does. In the past private work subsidised NHS but now more and more businesses would go bust if they did NHS work.

The average dental student is now qualifying with £80,000 to £100,000 debt , student loans, loans ,indemnity , registration etc take over 50% of their earnings . Affording a car , rent etc becomes increasingly difficult . The NHS is propped up by dentists in their 50s and 60s who are now retiring and selling up but the next generation can't afford business loans and mortgages on NHS payments.

In a cheap area it costs £140 an hour per room to run a surgery and the only money the practice gets for all expenses is what the patient pays plus a few pennies or a couple of pounds from the government. It just doesn't cover costs. https://www.bda.org/media-centre/nhs-dentistry-treasury-now-no1-roadblock-to-saving-service/

That's including check up, x rays, all extractions, any fillings etc , When it costs at least £140 an hour to run a room in a cheap area and assuming the child needs at least two visits for extractions do you think that will even cover costs? The government gives no other money to cover all the costs of running a surgery other than what is earned on treatment.
Even just the software licence to send reminders out costs £800 a month or 11 courses of treatment including extractions. Now imagine all the expenses involved in running a practice and you will see why most courses of NHS treatment lose money.

I know two colleagues who in the last months handed their NHS contracts back. They had lost 6 figures the previous year providing NHS treatments.

YABU. The dental contract is shocking and having worked at Health Education England (as it was), I’m well versed in the ins and outs of it. It would be unaffordable for children to get it free and the prices for adults would have to rise or even the number of NHS places for adults would reduce further. When you think what you’re actually getting for your money, it’s pretty good.

100%, yes. The whole NHS dentist situation is completely ridiculous nowadays and needs a whole revamp, because for now it’s complete luck of the draw if you have an NHS dentist or not. I think all children should get free dentistry, and all adults should have to pay, but not the crazy prices that there are now. (I say this as an adult with an NHS dentist space).

@Lollygaggle- I understand dentistry is expensive - I’m not blaming the dentists, I do blame the government for not putting more into it. I’d happily pay higher taxes so everyone can have access to NHS dentists.

100%, yes. The whole NHS dentist situation is completely ridiculous nowadays and needs a whole revamp, because for now it’s complete luck of the draw if you have an NHS dentist or not. I think all children should get free dentistry, and all adults should have to pay, but not the crazy prices that there are now. (I say this as an adult with an NHS dentist space).

I agree.

We do have an NHS dentist - she is better than nothing, and it's great to have access to NHS price fillings but her version of treatment is to try a filling that she is sure will fail then yank the problem tooth when really it needed a root canal. I've lost 3 since pregnancy. I'm actually considering doing a monthly payment plan elsewhere.

Private dentists would happily treat children for free if the government paid them enough to do so.
My dentist stopped as it was actually costing them money to treat my child.
Don’t blame dentists. Blame the government (again!)

Exactly , the average amount spent per person treated per year on NHS dentistry, including patient payments is £36! You couldn't get a plumber out for that , a garage would laugh at you .

Yet for £36 a year per person treated a qualified dental surgeon with the aid of qualified nurses, therapists and dental technicians, will carry out microsurgery in your mouth.

In no other area of health are practitioners expected to personally pay for people's treatment.

Root canals don’t last forever, ten years or so. And considering how expensive root canal treatment is, and the failure rate, maybe having them extracted is the better option.

Root treatments can last much longer than that. Some I have done are still going strong at 35 plus years and I have seen 60 year old root treatments lasting. It depends on how complicated root filling is, how much infection and how much tooth left. At the moment a good root filled tooth has a longer lifespan than an implant.

It was published in 2023 the one I looked at the other year, written 2021, looking at applicants for medicine/dentistry against ethnicity and background, and your odds of getting an offer.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eje.12914

Nevertheless, you're right that the NHS dentistry is shocking with no way near enough money being allocated, which is why it's not surprising that NHS dentists gain expertise then go private. Mine has just gone private.

Agreed. No where near me takes on nhs adults (hasn’t for 10 years) but they all take on nhs children