A pass is a pass? GCSE

[Rumplestiltz]

At GCSE, a 4 is a pass. When employers/apprenticeships/further and higher education institutes ask for a pass in maths and English, it’s a 4.

So why the fuss about “strong” passes, which is a 5? Why does the Government organise its data on the proportion who get “strong” passes in English and Maths? Bridget Phillipson saying it’s a travesty that white, working class boys aren’t getting “strong” passes in English and Maths and their life chances are affected as a result. It kind of undermines those who work very hard to get to that pass line of a 4 (teachers and students) to be told it’s not good enough.

I am sure I will be told it’s very easy to get a 4 etc etc, but for some kids in these subjects, it isn’t.

So my AIBU is - a pass is a pass.

My eldest is autistic and found English GCSE incredibly hard as they couldn’t get their heads round the marking scheme. They just didn’t agree with it. They got a 3 in their mocks. We put EVERYTHING into getting them over the line on it and in the end they made it to a 5, but I felt pretty broken by the process! They have just graduated a MSci with a First in their chosen field and are about to start a highly competitive commercially-funded PhD at a world-class university, so the idea that struggling to pass English language GCSE means they weren’t suitable for A levels is really odd to me. Similarly my child who is currently achieving a 1 at best in maths is also writing RS essays (their favourite subject) for fun.

I totally agree foundational numeracy and literacy is really important. Whether the current GCSE approach means that passing maths and English language guarantees that is another issue for me.

I hate that young people are not treated as though a grade 1/2/3 has value. These grades are Level 1 passes. Some children will work incredibly hard for a grade 3, and then will believe they just 'didnt pass'.

What Bridget Phillipson is say is true though.

That demographic are the lowest achieving of all students. Thats why she is targeting them. It’s a good thing.

Im not talking about progression as a metric. I said in my first post on the thread that a 4 is a level 2 pass. That's the benchmark for not retaking English and Maths, and as the basic access to jobs or courses that require a "pass" in those (or other) subjects. I also said that sixth forms and other post 16 providers will set their own entry requirements, and these very between providers and courses. I would require a different grade for Maths than I would for Biology for example. What I find unhelpful is firstly trying to equate the old and new grading systems, and secondly the characterisation of grades 1-3 as a fail rather than a level 1 pass.

So were are in absolute agreement.

Well, not really. A 4 is the bare minimum which means you can get a job. There's very few jobs you can do without 4s in English and Maths and most want a few others too.

If you get a 4 then your chances of studying that subject further are very limited.

On a CV, employers will look at GCSEs and a spread of 4s looks much less appealing than 5s and 6s. If you're hiring for a job which requires strong written communication, I think you'd be wary of hiring someone with a 4 in English and the same for numeracy and Maths.

There's a big difference between getting a certain hurdle...just. and another thing nailing a higher grade as you are keeping and using these grades forever.

What matters is that the student gets the grade they are capable of. If they are only capable of a 4...Great.. and they've reached the hurdle where they don't have to resit.

However a student capable of more has only nailed a minimum hurdle where they don't have to resit but, to be honest, they.would be better resitting and getting what they are capable of. In the future there will be applications and competition for study places, and work, and you can't control those up against you, only apply with grades that show you at your best.

That's just not true a grade four let's you on to many level three courses and apprenticeship, s .

You absolutely can get a job without grade 4s. The grade 4 pass rate is about 70% in Maths and English. The post 16 resit pass rate is low, especially in Maths. Many of those young people go to college and gain employment.

Yes but not in that subject.

If you got a grade 4 in maths your chances of being an actuary are pretty much scuppered. Ditto English and specialising in Comms. Without a strong set of 5s and above (sometimes you need 7s in the subjects you want to take!) you won't get into the best 6th forms either.

If you want to be a hairdresser or a plumber then a 4 is fine. But if you want options then you need higher.

SD is hoping for a 4 in English and a 9 in maths. It's safe to say that she has accepted that a career in a field requiring lots of reading and writing is not for her and is more than happy to take her pass and move on. She does know that with a 4, some doors are closing, but she doesn't want to go through those doors anyway. She's found her talents and they are numerous.

Most kids haven't- they're not sure what they want to do and need to keep options open.

The ableism on this thread is really depressing.

You replied to one of my posts. One of our DC scraped English at Grade 4 (after a remark) achieved a 6 in maths (after a lot of private tutoring after we saw he was predicted a 3 or 4 I can’t remember now) went to sixth form
to study 3 A levels in which he achieved ABB.
he is at university and is on course for a first.

That still doesn’t change the fact his sixth form college wanted minimum 5 GCSEs at grades 5-9. (maths and English at minimum 4, any subjects which had been studied at school minimum 6). before the remark the college said to us he couldn’t do A levels and retake English,

Wow. You sound like a very limited person, not really much fun to work with if once people have gained experience in the work place you are still judging them on a set of exams they did at 16.

I have a C in english and also have a degree in computing, also work for a FTSE 250 company and don't even have my GCSE grades on my CV.

You do know GCSEs and A Levels are marked on the curve so designed for not all to pass?

You do realise that there are course, s other than Alevels?
Grade fours are fine for level three courses
Also there is absolutely nothing wrong with being either a plumber or a hairdresser and many plumber ,s out earn lots of people with degrees .

I'm a teacher and I entirely agree. And also it is extremely unfair to those who get grades 1-3. They've still demonstrated some knowledge!

I mostly teach A level and no-one calls C-E a "weak pass".

A pass is a pass.

But not all 6th forms are like this, there are various options including level 2 course that lead to level 3 course but more course work based.

Can I just say, several years onwards from mine doing GCSE'S , none of them went to uni. ALL 3 of them are in great careers, 2 are Managers and not once since leaving their first jobs were the employers remotely interested in the GCSE results, it was all about the experience gained in their chosen careers.

For any dc who have not made the grades everyone feels are life dependent, it is entirely achievable to go on and have great, well paid and rewarding careers.

As a family, we look back and wonder why everything was so bloody stressful, as it really was just ridiculous!

I wish it was that simple ,it's really not easy to get onto an apprenticeship with out the minimum grade 4,s in maths and English ,which IRL many kids struggle with I wish it were

not different there were plenty of other options he could have done at this sixth form college.
but he wanted to do A levels and in hindsight the right path for him. (another DC did btec and is also at university).

When you say several years on how many years are we talking?

Is this not like saying how "in the old days" a D or E was a pass, but it was only worth having if it was C or above? And schools were graded on what % of grades were C and above? Everyone understood that just fine, so whats the issue with how that's transposed over to numbers? D and E were still a pass, but a C was a worthwhile pass. I don't understand how people aren't understanding? Or is it me who's missing something?

No, absolutely nothing wrong with being a hairdresser or a plumber, in fact, it's a safer career than most degree level professions.

However, if you're 16 and DON'T know what you want to do with your life, it's nice to have choices. 4s don't give you all the choices. The higher the grades, the more options you have.

It's not quite right if white, working class boys are consistently not getting the grades needed for those options, unless we believe that they are inherently less capable than all other demographics, which I don't.

So that’s not a problem then is it if a child has other options that aren’t just 6th form,

I'm looking at grade boundaries. For one particular board, any kids who sat the foundation paper in maths - and got 74% or below is a 4. 75%+ in that paper takes some doing.

If you read what I said, it's IN THAT SUBJECT.

Finding English hard isn't going to have a massive impact on a career in computing.