Thread 16: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film?

[DisappointedReader]

The Observer's original exposé: The real Salt Path: how a blockbuster book and film were ...

The 14 Observer items currently available on their online 'The real Salt Path' page: The real Salt Path | The Observer

More from The Observer:
‘Hope is extinguished’: CBD patients respond to Salt Path...
The real Salt Path | The Observer (The Slow Newscast)
I will link to two more Observer videos in the first post of this thread.

The Observer YouTube Channel: The Observer UK - YouTube

Raynor Winn/Sally Walker's statement: Raynor Winn

Thread One ^www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5368194-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?^

Threads 2-11: Links all in the OP of Thread 12

Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5384574-thread-12-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386458-thread-13-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5388981-thread-14-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

New posters joining us in the genuine spirit of our civil discourse welcome. It would be helpful to get the background from at least some of the Observer items above before posting. There are currently a number of interesting items on The Observer website and linked to above.

To all - Please be extremely cautious when it comes to naming or implicating people and addresses not in the public eye or with no direct connection to the story, and around the understandable health speculations, especially where details are unclear or still emerging. Remember, even Hollywood rabbits attract the odd flea. Please do not engage with visitors who seem to have their own agenda and seek to derail. Avoid @'ing and quoting them as - from experience - this will only encourage them back to the threads. We have done amazingly well together for fifteen very interesting, very serious and very silly threads so far. I can't be here as much as I'd like so all help with keeping our discussion walking along in our usual reasonable and respectful fashion is very welcome.

Yes, it really is Thread 16.

Keep to the path. No saltiness. May the fudge be with you.

The husband would have been jailed for benefit fraud; claiming benefits for an illness he doesn’t have.
We don't know whether Timmoth has claimed any disability benefits.

On the class issue, I have always thought of the Walker-Winn-Wyns as working class. Daughter of a farm stockman, sometime clerical worker. Son of a plasterer, sometime plasterer and gardener. Local accents, without university or professional qualifications until Timmoth's horticulture in later life. Relying on Tax Credits benefit. Yes they were (heavily-mortgaged) homeowners and had the attached holiday let but plenty of working class people can say the same. Yes they bought the French property but it was low value and a doer upper (since left to rot). I have seen them described as middle class but that doesn't seem to me to fit. They have always presented to me as working class but with middle class aspirations.

I think the difference for them is that they have relatives who have done better for themselves and so they were able to go to one of them for the loan to repay the money stolen from the Hemmings. Without that resource Salray may very well have gone to prison.

The scandal has been so widely reported and commented upon, and aspects of it are so serious (theft of £100k in today's money, faking imminent death), that I'm not sure it will ever be forgotten. Will she have the brass neck to attend public events again?

Addendum - there isn't a ferry from Polzeath to Rock, so maybe SW is referring to the ferry at Rock to Padstow.

Afternoon all. I hope you are well today.

Thank you to @CarelessWispah for your kind words and contribution to these threads - and welcome back to MN. You do know that we can never really leave?

You'd think someone even wrongly accused of embezzlement would be hyper vigilant to ever being caught / accused of stealing again....I'd be petrified of even having an overdue library book 😂.

Plus very low reward to risk value...fudge not being super filling or essential.

I agree with you on the Walkers' social class -- rural/smalltown 'respectable' working class in origin, SW's parents certainly with aspirations for their daughter to 'marry up' within the farming community and part of their dislike of TW (as represented in TWS, anyway) that he simply wasn't the aspirational partner they would have liked, but a slightly wild layabout with a manual job in the family business (lots of references in TWS to them skipping college and work). No significant post-school qualifications for either, until TW did his midlife BSc. Both stayed living at home till they married, and stayed local to their families. Clerical/gardening/construction jobs, plus running their holiday let. And yes, people in their vicinity, certainly TW's siblings, doing better for themselves, and presumably giving rise to ideas about different kinds of life being possible.

She doesn’t say a ferry from Polzeath to Rock. She mentions Polzeath then Daymer then rock to Padstow. It makes sense for the “hut” to be what is now the beach house but it is never suggested it is Polzeath.

“The path dropped into the Polzeaths, New and Old. A building site from end to end. New builds, extensions, renewals, building, building, building. A long beach stretched ahead of us, from Daymer Bay to the small ferry at Rock. The tide was way out, thinning the wide River Camel …”

My rather pedantic point being there are many inaccuracies in TSP but we don’t need to add ones that aren’t there. The hut - which is really a shop - is at Rock, where she says it is, just before getting on the ferry.

For me this is an astute point and a real insight into SW's character. Stealing the fudge after the embezzlement shows a complete lack of moral code - and she was thrilled with herself for the theft, not a bit remorseful. Once again showing complete disregard for a small business owner working so hard. One cannot imagine the stress placed on small shops at the hands of shoplifters. It was a disgraceful act for a middle aged woman.

Can anyone explain the non disclosure that SW made Mr Hemmings sign? And the point of it? Presumably at that point she wasn't intending to write a book (and didn't know that book would make her household name). So who did she not want to find out about what she'd done? Friends and family?

I agree it seems highly likely SW would have been in prison if the police had charged her and it led to a conviction (and it seems likely it would have led to a conviction.) it was embezzlement on a very big scale.

Gosh, I would imagine she wouldn't have wanted anyone to know. People in the village, future employers, anyone. It would have probably been in the local papers if she had been charged.

I suppose the whole point is that in exchange for a thief repaying the money once found out, the person stolen from can be manoeuvred into agreeing to things in exchange for being repaid.

Basically 'You can either try to pursue me through the criminal justice system and possibly never get your money back because I don't have it, or I give you the money back now, AND cover all legal fees, but you have to agree not to pursue this with the police, and to never mention it to any third parties.'

SW preserves her clean sheet in the criminal justice system as she was never actually charged with theft, and MH isn't allowed to damage her reputation locally by talking about what she'd done. He's got to choose between (1) pursuing justice and having SW charged and (2) getting his stolen money back.

This has presumably been set up by the 'fancy London solicitor' Ros Hemmings remembers. I have absolutely no idea whether it can have been legally enforceable, though. MH clearly believed it was. RH says he agreed to the proposal 'eventually', which suggests it was a struggle, which isn't hard to understand.

And being charged would come up on any DBS check for any potential future jobs, wouldn't it?

That is sort of what I assumed, but presumably he could already have told half the neighbourhood? I mean there was nothing stopping him having told people what he found out as soon as he found out she'd stolen the money, he called the police and told them, so it could have already got out? Local people did, after all, seem to know...

So the NDA is only going to stop him speaking AFTER that? By which time the damage could be done?

.Tim's sister,their partner and dad were living there

And the abandoned car by the sea.
I mean, she didn’t say she was thinking of ending her life, but that’s what many would worry about if a car was abandoned. And in her circumstances of just being felt by the long arm of the law…

I also think they are “middle-class coded” it doesn’t matter whether they are working or middle class really, they look like and act like they’re middle class. They wear hand-knits, love wild camping, walking, had a powder-blue aga in their farmhouse and property in France. She doesn’t seem to wear make-up. If she had Botox, micro bladed eyebrows, and a viv Westwood handbag, however…

I don't know. Absolutely, embezzlement can carry a prison sentence, but it seems to vary with the circumstances, amount stolen etc.

This is from a solicitors' website -- they seem to specialise in fraud/workplace crimes, among other things:

Embezzlement is a type of theft where an individual, usually in a position of trust, with the responsibility of managing someone else's money or property, misappropriates a portion (or all) of those assets for personal gain. Common examples of this include instances where a person has legal access to another's funds or assets, such as someone in the role of a bookkeeper or treasurer, who uses their position to misappropriate funds.

Navigating embezzlement under UK law is intricate and requires careful differentiation from fraud. Typically falling under one or more offences outlined in the Theft Act 1968 or the Fraud Act 2006, the act of embezzlement can lead to severe consequences. In situations like these, it is common for the person accused of embezzlement to have a close relationship with the person making the accusation, which can make it more likely for misunderstandings to occur.

If you're being investigated for theft from your employer, and you have been reported to the police, you might be invited to attend the police station for a voluntary interview. The police might also talk to your coworkers or family and may request permission from a court to search your home or workplace for more evidence. As part of the police investigation, they will attempt to gather evidence, such as expert reports, photos, videos or audio recordings that might help to prove that you committed theft against your employer.

Taking action early is important. Being in the middle of an investigation can be extremely stressful as, if you're found guilty, depending on the nature of the theft, you might face a prison sentence. This can affect your ability to earn a living, both now and in the future, which can be extremely worrying if you have people who depend on you financially.

If you're convicted of theft from your employer, it doesn't automatically mean you'll go to jail. The judge will consider your personal situation, the amount stolen, and the reasons behind the theft when determining the sentence. Possible consequences include being asked to repay what you stole, paying a fine, and doing community service. In more severe cases, the maximum sentence for this offence is seven years in prison, though this is usually reserved for the most serious offences.

The assessment of harm involves looking at the actual, intended, or risked loss resulting from the offence. Intended loss refers to situations where circumstances prevent the actual loss intended. The risk of loss considers the likelihood and extent of harm if it occurs, and it is less serious than actual or intended loss.

A criminal record is also a possibility. Even for relatively low-level thefts, a conviction will show on background checks, potentially causing difficulties in securing future employment. For individuals working in regulated professions like medicine, finance, or law, a theft conviction can trigger involvement from the relevant regulatory body, possibly restricting future work in that sector.

https://www.draycottbrowne.co.uk/

I too have tried to have a look at the non disclosure @Vroomfondleswaistcoat there seems to be different ones, because RH has now spoken out, I am assuming the non disclosure was only made with MH for his lifetime, some continue to the executor, but with RH talking now I should think not. What I would like to know is if the person asking for the non disclosure agreement, agrees to keep quiet about it (obviously it's in their interest) can Salray use that as an excuse for her non disclosure, but when did MH die, because it looks like the non disclosure finished then.

I think you're just thinking of a different type of working class self-presentation, though.

I agree that they present as a very acceptable face of WC-ness to a readership which will have skewed broadly MC.

But, let's face it, if SW had presented in interviews and in the media in general as designer athleisure wear-clad, lip-fillered, and heavily made-up, that would simply not have worked for the 'Raynor Winn brand'. Similarly TW if he'd presented with neck tattoos, a buzz cut and an Aston Villa replica shirt.

If Salray had been criminally charged, even if she was lucky and avoided a custodial sentence it would have finished them locally, my Nana was Welsh, everyone had something linked to their name, one lady was Mrs Jones the flowers, when I asked my nana if Mrs Jones was a florist, she said no Mrs Jones stole some flowers from a grave when she was a little girl, these things don't get forgotten in small places.

But this is my point. They're middle-class coded. They look and say and do things the middle-class do, irrespective of their actual standing. That helps them to be accepted. Trusted. Build a brand.

I recall Martin H was very embarrassed by the embezzlement? He seems like he wouldn’t have wanted to say much about it anyway (that seems more like his wife’s role! and she stayed quiet for decades).

I don't know if you saw my pp with research from the sentencing guidelines? The amount alone would take it into the most serious category. In all likelihood, SW would have gone to prison.

I agree, they are quite middle-class coded. I'd add that they claim to spend a lot of time reading, enjoying and discussing highbrow literature like Beowulf, in the "library" at Pen-y-Maes or otherwise. Enjoying literature or other forms of highbrow culture shouldn't be a class-signifier (the trades union movement used to be very hot on supporting education and cultural opportunities), but nonetheless in this country it is. Think of Leonard Bast counting out his pennies to attend a symphony concert so he can cling onto his precarious gentility. Or the snobbish remarks Angela Rayner (who publicly describes herself as working class) attracted when she went to the opera at Glyndebourne.

Middle class coding?

@LetsBeSensible

"I also think they are “middle-class coded” it doesn’t matter whether they are working or middle class really, they look like and act like they’re middle class."

I agree and, despite the lack of formal education when younger, they're both well read, especially SalRay. They can speak and present themselves well. They were buying a house and getting on. Moved away from their working class roots.