We need to start charging for NHS services

[Fragmentedbrain]

£15 for the GP
£20 for A&E
NHS routes to paid-for fast track treatment
Options to pay for nicer rooms

We need to stop putting working people on disability benefits for want of a functioning health service it's barbaric

Absolutely, I get so sick of people saying the NHS is 'free'.

Well, yes, that's fundamentally what these threads suggest. In the US people have chosen not to get inhalers if they can't afford them. I'm in a similar boat, albeit not asthma, and see people writing "I know people will bang on about the disabled and vulnerable and disabled." As they should. I'm not disputing the NHS needs tightening, there's extremely long waiting lists, but I've also seen how hard some people work and they save lives daily. I loathe the thought of us all gradually, albeit intentionally, moving to a private system as it will just discriminate against the poorest.

Yes, but I'm probably paying for things for you that I don't benefit from. That's how taxes work.

I can see your point but I have never found evidence for that. It is simply the rhetoric people are buying but in effect nobody has the correct real picture. And I am not trying to be controversial just speaking from the experience and evidence I have witnessed.
You would agree with the story of sudden increase in demand if capacity stayed the same and you would measure massive increases in demand. But that is Not the case and it can be verified. I don't have the time and energy to gather all the evidence here but just as a pointer these are some facts I know:

1. Capacity has been diminished over a number of years quite drastically.
2. Brexit has been an absolute hammer on the staffing issues exacerbating the shortage of clinical staff
3. No investment in training adequate numbers of clinicians
4. Wasted huge amounts if money on privatised services that are poor or inexistent value for money

5 Huge numbers of people in the NHS in non clinical roles who lack competence talent and imagination, wanting to just do what they always have done. When you work in the middle of tehm it is literally skin crawling to see what they are doing.

1. and all these before you even start to consider the Massive impact policies and shortcomings from other areas such as social services, care homes etc have on the NHs. The NHS is used as a dumping ground

I could fill several pages. For me this is very clear, either this country simply does not have a competent number of people who can look at the whole picture and come up with creative sollutions to get the NHS back on track - which is quite hard to believe, or the NHS has been and continues to be deliberately decimated for the benefit of private companies, which sewms to be the more likely sinister intention. One thing is clear, the Labour posturing is simply bullshit and they are playing the blaming game without owning their responsibility for breaking the NHS. They are just doing more of the same wasting public money to brainwash people that they are taking tough measures. BTW this is the phrase I heard most frequently from senior leaders in the NhS when I questioned why money were spent on something that gave no benefits. the answer : "We must be seen to do something about it". Never mind that there were no results. That says it all.

it is already privatised to a much larger extent than people are able to comprehend

The problem with your argument is that you are looking at only one aspect of tax. Firstly look at how many people (I am not talking here about high wealth and corporations) employed or self employed actually pay net tax. That is paying tax and not claiming benefits of any kind. What proportion of population is that? Then look at how much tax these people are paying especially if they are over the 20% threshold. Add on massive cost of living and extorsionate house prices driven by greed and inadequate policies made by corrupt politicians with vested interests. How much more do you want to burden a relatively small proportion of population who work hard pay lots of taxes and if they need healthcare they either have to pay private, or receive inadequate care or live in poor health and in some cases die early because of lack of healthcare.
For years there has been the brainwashing rhetoric that you get what you pay for or we don't pay enough taxey. At the same time evidence emerges of how tax money are misused abused and treated as their personal finances by corrupt politicians. So no, the solution is not for a small proportion of the population to hand over all their earnings. Taxes have increased net and nothing improved, on the contrary.
I would want to pay a bit more in tax if I had the right benefits, good healthcare when needed, good quality education and a pension before I drop dead just like generations just before us enjoyed plentifully. In absence of all of these no I don't agree we should pay more taxes, we already pay too much. And if we were paying more I guarantee it would still be the same situation. Black holes just suck in more and more.
The NHS is only a symptom of a corrupt, criminal political system and a population that has become completely disengaged. The problem is much wider, it needs a very intelligent approach by people who have indeed the best interests of people at heart. That is not going to happen in my lifetime I am very sure of it.

Well, yes, I'm only looking at one aspect of tax, as that's one way to quantify what people typically say, when they say 'I pay my national insurance for the NHS', of course, NI contributions aren't the only source of funding the NHS receives as funding is paid from one pot which is made up of hundreds of differnt tax contributions.

I've worked with the NHS for the best part of two decades now, and I see firsthand where money is wasted and where other departments struggle. You'll always get bad apples in any organisation, regardless of whether it's private or a public service such as the NHS.

If you've not seen any improvement, perhaps you should look at why there has been no improvement. we could go off on a tangent and look at the funding the NHS has received over the last 15 years, but I fear that would get too political.

I also don't remember saying that you should pay more tax to fund the NHS, or that they are underfunded. (they are) I'm simply trying to state that people, for the most part, get out more than they put in, as shown by being on a parental forum, the cost of childbirth, NHS Vs private.

I was so concerned about the state of maternity services in my area a decade or so ago (the trust kept coming bottom of league tables and there were awful stories in local media each week) that I looked into private services and discovered that not only are they really expensive, you can't mix and match and there was no choice. For example it was causing me huge stress to need antenatal care a full hour to hour and a half's drive from work, due to the location of the hospitals and services (my actual commute was half that) and no option to have care at a hospital near work.

I had some private appointments with the consultant who'd done my IVF and with an independent midwife. The NHS wouldn't accept bloods etc done by these people (I mean I understand why). At one point I was having the identical tests done 3x each week. When I questioned this the house officer wrote down that I was difficult!

Basically it's a giant like it or lump it state monopoly, very variable by area, with quite poor outcomes internationally on some metrics.

I stuck at one child...

Until you've lived in a country where this is already the system, you don't have any idea how this plays out.

Come back to me when you have small children and are buckling under the weight of bills, and then find yourself making health decisions based on whether you can afford a 3rd visit to the GP... or a slightly confused elderly, or mental health issues person, and you're fretting about running out of money for the electric or phone, and so decide against an essential consultation.

As always, this won't just stop time wasters, it will make a two tiered system where poorer people deal with even more ill health.

But at least you can see a doctor. I'm 2 years and waiting for stuff that should have been sorted 30 odd years ago

In Ireland children and OAPs are free, as are those with means tested ‘medical cards’. Everyone else pays and it’s 55 euro so not cheap.
It’s far from perfect but you can always see a doctor’s.
It also means that there are far fewer time wasters at the GP

Only a small percentage of those in the UK pay for prescriptions. Anyone not in England is exempt, plus kids, elderly, pregnant and postnatal women, add to that those with certain conditions that get all prescriptions free( thyroid for example) and all those getting certain benefits.

There's only a few of us left to actually cough up

Thing it people that have never paid any contributions will still get treated.

Nail on the head. Workers who are already paying tax, nic, student loans, workplace pensions, commuting costs, etc., will be the ones paying to see a gp or A&E. Non workers on benefits will almost certainly be exempt. So it will end up just another tax on workers.

This is a terrible idea. Also, the NHS is not free - we pay for it through our taxes. It's simply free at the point of use. There's an inherent unfairness for super healthy, non-clumsy folks, but, when you need it, it's there - and you would want to be able to have that support and treatment, rather than worry you can't afford for your broken ankle to be sorted, for example.

So, I had to look at private healthcare recently, as there was a massively long waiting list for some significant surgery I needed (total knee replacement.) To go private - because, of course, existing conditions aren't covered on insurance - it was almost £20k. I was looking at going to Lithuania, of all places, as it was about 1/2 that price, if I had to go private. (Also, incredibly high standards of care, training, etc., there; I'd recommend it over Turkey, as also a shorter flight....) Anyway, in the end my case because urgent, and I got the surgery here, thankfully.
I would have been happy to pay for a single room, nicer food, etc., but the key thing was the quality of care. It's having the follow up, any questions you might have, and all that; all of which is also chargeable privately.
I did have private surgery a few years ago (covered via the NHS waiting list initiative), and the care was no better - they were just better staffed, there were plush private rooms, and the food was much nicer. The surgeons, nurses, physios, etc., provided just the same standard of care.

Anyway, I would strongly oppose paying for the NHS, as it would stop so many people from seeking the help they need. Think of the times where you've had to keep going back to get something sorted - or for vulnerable, chronically ill, disabled, or older people - and it would be a barrier to doing that. I don't disagree with a system for charging for non-attendance; BUT you'd have to make sure that the administration of it all wouldn't outweigh the income. That was a big driver in doing away with prescription charges in Scotland anyway, because the system generated so little in comparison to the process of exemptions. (Can't find the research/evaluation report right now, but it was a Scottish Government evaluation one of my besties worked on; she's not a politician, but an academic, before anyone points that finger!)

I will also say (I've got a lot to say here....!) that I KNOW I've taken out more than I've probably paid - I'm 50, and I've had 4 spinal surgeries, a total knee replacement, a previous ACL knee repair, a couple of broken bones reset, a chronic health condition managed, and a couple of hospital stays for renal colic, and my appendix removal.
Balance it with my 47 y.o. brother, who has never had a night in hospital, other than the first 2 of his life; he's had some physio, and a few lots of antibiotics for chest infections, etc., over the years. Standard. He says he's obviously just been lucky, and hopes he's not saving it up for his old age! 😄
My 53 y.o. sister is somewhere in the middle - couple of kids with straightforward births, a broken ankle in her 20s, y'know.

The NHS saved my Mum's life a few years ago, when she got necrotising fasciatis, and sepsis. I can never thank the amazing staff enough, who sprung into action with incredible speed and skill. We nearly lost her, and I cannot fathom how much that would have cost, if we had to pay before they'd deal with her arriving at A&E in VF, and having to be shocked back into rhythm, and having immediate, middle of the night surgery to stop the rot in her foot, and save her limb (although she did lose a couple of toes, it was a small price to pay...) Because you need to not be worrying about how much it will cost, in situations like that.

Where would it stop? My mum had a giant brain tumour removed this year. 4 days after diagnosis after the dr Mis diagnosed her with depression for two ducking years. So she would pay for two years worth of wrong opinion and medication that she didn’t need and then pay to save her life to have her tumour removed? After working as a nurse for the bloody NHS for 35 years paying tax and national insurance???? No. Just no.

(Nail on the head. Workers who are already paying tax, nic, student loans, workplace pensions, commuting costs, etc., will be the ones paying to see a gp or A&E. Non workers on benefits will almost certainly be exempt. So it will end up just another tax on workers.)
This is how most people I know feel, totally not fair especially as a large portion of people on benefits are completely scamming the system!!

of course it’s not fair if people scam the system. That said, personally, l would prefer unscrupulous people scam the benefits system than see those genuinely need suffer. I remember seeing my hairdresser crying in the street during the pandemic, wondering where the money to pay for meals for her and her daughter were coming from, while big time scammers were cashing in and people were dying.

As for “a large proportion scamming the system”, when statements are made you should always quote the source in order to validate them. Sadly some of them were titled and sat in the House of Lords.

I’m sorry I can’t share your opinion on that. It’s gone on for way too long, the people who pay the tax work really hard & try very hard have to keep propping up systems for people who don’t bother to work at all for people who scam the system. I think it’s the majority on benefits that scam the system and the minority are the ones that genuinely really really need it as it was intended for unfortunately it’s become a choice in this country to go on benefits & why should working the people who pay taxes Get absolutely nothing and prop these people up!

Yes, and that's an added strain on resources, I realise. But where serious illness/injury is concerned, what's the alternative? For A&E departments, for example, to turn away someone who is in a serious condition because they haven't paid contributions, knowing they are very likely to die? Not how a civilised society behaves in my book.

@Flinstones - l assume your post was directed at me, but can’t be sure as it wasn’t tagged.

l said a statement should be backed up by quoting the source. That is not an opinion, that is how things work if you expect a statement to have credibility.

Just for certainty l have never claimed a benefit in my life, nor am l struggling. But others are.

This is how most people I know feel, totally not fair especially as a large portion of people on benefits are completely scamming the system!!

That is a bold statement. Care to back it up with actual figures?
Maybe some time on the toilet will help. Wear a glove.

This.

Imagine a jury operating based on what people think but not related to evidence. I repeat my previous request to @Flinstones quote your source.