To think Richard III blatantly killed the Princes in Tower?

[HenryTudor1485]

He’s undergone a bit of a reappraisal recently but I’m not having it. He was a wrong un.

He clearly had his nephews killed. He had motive, means and opportunity. The dates when they “disappeared” all add up.

He done the crime. He never did the time (unless you consider being defeated in battle and being hacked to death “time”).

It could also point to the idea that someone trying to curry favour killed them like Thomas a'Beckett.

I think there's one on the Dark History podcast

Yes but James Duke of Monmouth was the true heir after Charles 11 and lots of the West Country tried to make that happen...as a boy I remember Dad and his friends talking about it, several were still bitter about Judge Jeffries

If you were a medieval king, who has usurped the throne it's the obvious solution.

This is the long and the short of it. Richard had the most to gain and the most to lose.

I am friends with a beefeater and his family and have been to stay in the tower with them. Even those who live and breathe this and live in the tower today have vastly differing opinions on this.
i think it was most likely Richard, but there were varying opinions in the beefeaters I spoke to around whether they were killed and who by and also if someone helped them escape.
Sadly unless the bones are tested I don’t think we’ll ever know.

But if he kills the "usurper" Richard and there is a rightful king waiting why then would the country accept Henry vii a lad from Wales who lived in france for most of his life as another usurper. Rather then the rightful son of the beloved old king He wouldnt have won by conquest as there is a king thats not been conquered. Had the princes still been alive Henry vii would not have attacked. Henry had the most to gain

As I recall the 'killer evidence' was in the financial records of a European court raising funds for an invasion by Perkin Warbeck (or a.n. other pretender) and refering to them as the Prince but this doesn't prove they were the prince merely that the European Queen believed them to be (or found it convenient to do so).

YY - the record would hardly say "raising an army to support that commoner Warbeck" 😀

There's quite a funny bit in the Sunne in Splendour towards the end when Penman realises she's going to have to deal with the disappearance of the Princes. Someone (Hastings I think) says to Richard something along the lines of "Got some bad news old chap. The princes have disappeared" and there is momentary disquiet and it's then rather glossed over. Richard says something like "Gosh, that's such a puzzle, where could they have got to?"

Disclaimer : it's years since I read it, but I remember it amusing me.

I don't think he did it because at the time of their supposed deaths they had been declared illegitimate, so they were no political threat to Richard. I do think he wanted to be king instead of Edward, and was either relieved when evidence of his illegitimacy was found, or even ordered someone to discover or plant some evidence, but not because he was power-crazed or wished Edward any harm, but simply because the country was at risk of war and this was a time when kings were expected to be military leaders. Richard was an experienced fighter who had been leading armies into battle when he was still a teenager. Even his detractors agree that he fought bravely at Bosworth. Edward does not seem to have had any military training (yet?) and would have been a sitting duck. I think if Richard had killed them or even known they were dead, he would have come up with some story or excuse to explain their absence. He doesn't seem to have done that, just assumed that everyone would accept they were still in the Tower for their own safety. We also know from contemporary records that Edward was visited by a doctor in the Tower, so someone was making some effort to ensure he was well looked after.

Henry on the other hand hoped to strengthen his credentials by marrying Elizabeth, a member of the previous line, but that would only really work if she was declared legitimate. But if she was legitimate, then so were her brothers and that would make them a threat. My money is on someone appointed by either Henry or his mother Margaret having killed them.

I always thought Richards was innocent, he was willing to crown the eldest , till he was told they were bastards.
It makes more sense that Henry or his mother did it, as Edward had a lot of children and Henry needed a clear path to kingdom, he married their sister to seal the deal and was a bit under his mother’s thumb.

He did it, and he was right to do it.

They were ruthless times all round but, to me, it seems more likely that Henry VII was behind it. The Tudors seemed rather fond of offing any Plantagenet potential rival.

Again, access!!! They were held "close, in the inner confines of the Tower" to quote a contemporary source. They weren't accessible to anyone except with the highest authority.

Henry VII claimed the throne by right of conquest so irrelevant whether the boys were living. It was assumed by that time they were already dead.

I don't think it's irrelevant - if Edward V was still alive, Henry VII didn't conquer him for the throne so he still would have been a threat, just as Henry VI and his son would have been to Edward IV if they hadn't been put to death, despite Edward IV's military success.

But I agree that the two boys were most likely dead well before 1485.

And Occam’s Razor fits well here. Don’t forget, Richard had already participated in the killing of his own brother. The nephews were relative strangers to him and he saw the hated Woodville faction taking over the country. As a medieval pragmatist who had spent his youth in war, it was the practical solution.

IIRC, Henry VII had been in France for more than a decade before he won at Bosworth and hadn't seen his mother in that time - I think terming him as "under her thumb" is a stretch.

Many with Yorkist or Lancastrian blood would have been well aware of their prospects of ruling, given the Wars of the Roses, and I am sure Henry VII made his own assessment of his chances - yes, with his mother and stepfather's support, but that wouldn't have been enough on its own.

Im not saying he wasn't capable of killing them I imagine if it helped him he would do it without hesitation but I just cant see how it was to Richarda advantage that the boys died.
You cant kill a king and then say oh its fine he was evil for stealing this boys crown and then go take the crown yourself. If the boys wernt dead Henry wouldnt have attacked.

In fact Richard never actually declared them dead so how would Henry have known for certain that they were unless he had a hand in it. Would he really risk invasion if he didn't think the path was clear

The big issue is that if the boys were alive, why not show them? There had been rumours and muttering for quite some time about Richard. All he needed to do was to show them-invite them to court or allow them to receive visitors. Removing them cemented his place on the throne. There is a theory that Buckingham had them slaughtered to curry favour but everything I’ve read about Richard was that he was certainly capable and had the motive to have them killed.

but I just cant see how it was to Richarda advantage that the boys died.

Putting rivals/threats to the throne to death was common though - in the rule
of Edward IV, see Henry VI, his son, George of Clarence, Buckingham under RIII - and later under HVII, Edward, Clarence’s son, then his sister Margaret and her sons under HVIII.

Remember, RIII wasn’t expecting to only rule for two years and might well have acted against other threats in due course if he had survived Bosworth.

If you are in the north, Middleham is an interesting visit (an hour). A ruined small castle that was Richards is close to the High Street.

I agree to an extent but I guess he didn’t see Henry VII as a serious threat. His claim was relatively tenuous and he was exiled. There is always the potential for other claimants to come out the woodwork but this might not have seemed like much of an immediate threat, until it was.

The bones in the coffin were at one point found thrown on a midden. They have been handled by numerous people. The DNA is contaminated