To think Richard III blatantly killed the Princes in Tower?

[HenryTudor1485]

He’s undergone a bit of a reappraisal recently but I’m not having it. He was a wrong un.

He clearly had his nephews killed. He had motive, means and opportunity. The dates when they “disappeared” all add up.

He done the crime. He never did the time (unless you consider being defeated in battle and being hacked to death “time”).

That’s what the accusation and reason for execution was though. At the time

Richard was Lord Protector. Who took that role was a decision only to be made by the late King. He did not pass that over to a Woodville he gave it to his own bother Richard.

Whether we agree or disagree isn’t the issue. It was treason to act against the wishes of your King.

( just as ignoring a will would be today for example)

Ok.

Tricky Dicky did it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck!

😂😂

I'm trying to remember now, but was her theory not that Margaret Beaufort persuaded the Duke of Buckingham to have it done, and he was Lord Protector of the Tower at the time? (hence access). Or one of his close allies?

Interesting, thank you. I watched that programme several times and it was definitely depicted that the documents discovered by members of the RIII Society in Europe were new discoveries. In fact, I’m sure the documentary was called ‘The New Evidence’ (I’ll need to check that!).

Janima Ramirez seemed quite open to the ‘new’ evidence.

I don’t want to think R did it! I know they were different times but he seemed to be so well regarded in the North and loyal to his brother Edward.

I really do admire Philippa Langley’s dedication and would love to know what actually happened to those boys.

I don’t want to think R did it! I know they were different times but he seemed to be so well regarded in the North and loyal to his brother Edward.

Clearly his plans for the Princes weren't good. If he hadn't killed them what did he plan for their future? Life in prison, not many other options. Seems a bit odd to think he couldn't steal the throne from his Nephews and kill them whilst thinking he was entirely capable of imprisoning the Princes for life or perhaps mutilating them to the point they couldn't be credible kings. (Blinding and castrating would have done the trick.)

For me the clincher is all the "anti-Richard" people - including the Prince's mother - Elizabeth Woodville suddenly switched their support from the Princes to Henry Tudor. Clearly they thought the Princes were dead long before Henry took over.

If Buckingham did it (he was Constable, so probably could have done) then it would probably have been in his own interest rather than Henry Tudor’s - he was descended from 3 of the sons of John of Gaunt.

It all goes back to John of gaunt!

If we’re all rereading The Daughter of Time we should probably revisit our memories of John of Gaunt in Katherine too?

On THAT we can all agree 😀

Well I think he should be cancelled and de-platformed

🤣

Yeah! There is no way he should be presenting Masterchef!

Katherine by Anya Seton. My favourite ever book.

So, while I do think Richard did it, the chain isn’t a smoking gun for me - if you had murdered a king and stolen the chain off his body, I don’t think your sister would be trumpeting that fact thirty years later.

If that chain did really belong to Edward V, I don’t think James Tyrell obtained it via his murder. Possibly a gift? (I also don’t think it will have been his chain of office, since Edward was a child and was never crowned - likely just a normal gold chain).

She is my children’s many times great Grandmother.

Re Brat Farrar I can but there is a radio adaption available on Sounds if you want a refresher

Has ‘The Survival of The Princes In the Tower’ by Matthew Lewis been mentioned yet.

It’s worth a read to get an angle on the boys potential survival.

It contains contemporary material written and evidenced at and around the time.

Yeah, it means absolutely nothing except book sales.

The failing of any theory that they were killed after Bosworth is that, if Richard could have produced them to boys before it to prove he hadn’t killed them, he would have

Was anyone accusing of having killed them before Bosworth? I thought the rumours started in Henry's time.

See my above posts re Mancini and others.

Yes.

Clearly they were considered dead before Bosworth because their support had shifted from the princes to Henry Tudor.

Although I don't see why Richard would have wanted to prove they were alive before Bosworth, even if they were.

@DrPrunesqualer I am partway through the Matthew Lewis book and find it a stack of maybes… maybe some yorkist
nobleman was in some town keeping one of the princes safe… or maybe he was just there for some other reason?!

It couldn’t really be checked against the same source as Richard III. They would have to find a matriarchal line from EV’s sisters or aunts.

As their uncle, I think RIii - whose DNA is on record now - is a close enough make match.

I agree that the mDNA line is different.