Summer holidays should be longer

[noblegiraffe]

Our kids have the shortest summer holidays in Europe, Italy have 13 weeks, even Ireland has 9.

They're under pressure so much at school they need more time to just be kids. Classrooms are so hot in the last few weeks of term that it's impossible to learn effectively anyway.

I think we should add at least an extra two weeks to the summer holidays, so break up near the start of July. This would bring us more into line with private schools too.

And with longer holidays it might help recruit and retain teachers, and reduce competition for summer annual leave slots for working parents. It could even reduce the cost of holidays as 'peak season' would be longer.

@Madsciencecovid2020
'We also get extremely tired looking after your kids - as surrogate parents' This type of attitude is why teachers lose a lot of respect.

Incorrect. My kids school have two longer days and this means that that get an extra 222 hours of learning over their school career. Lunch remains the same. They finish at 4.

I actually think the summer holidays should be shorter. I would like to see the summer holidays reduced to 4 weeks, but an extra week added to the February and October half terms.

@birdling what do you mean we don't get more holiday than other people and that most of our holidays are unpaid? Believe me, as a teacher if I didn't get paid during the holidays, I wouldn't do it. Having worked outside education and now as a dedicated teacher, I still have way more holiday than I did before. I also agree that children should have less holiday over the summer. Research shows too much information is lost over the summer.

IMO children and teachers (I include myself in this), would benefit more from a shorter summer. We wouldn't suddenly be doing extra work, because those days would be added to other holidays during the year to give the students and teachers more balance.

@K2054 we get paid IN the holidays but not FOR all of them

We love the Finnish ski resorts like Levi. But totally all about the skiing in Feb holidays.

It means you've already done all of the work for your salary by working your 190 pupils facing days and 5 INSET, before having the summer off. What they pay you in August has already been earned now!

Can I clarify something:
When it says the starting pay for a newly qualified teacher is around £31,000, does that mean they get £31,000 (gross) or that they get £31,000 minus however much they would be paid for the weeks they are not paid for.

I disagree, it's part of our salary. There is the potential to be asked to attend a course, but we are still paid regardless. Also we most definitely get more holiday than those outside of education. As a teacher, after planning, marking and preparing materials, and teaching extra curricular activities, I still have way more time to spend with my children than I ever did working outside of education.

Teaching is hard work and yes you do sometimes feel like you want to go and lie down in a dark room for a week at the end of term, but is it worse than people experience outside of education? No, of course it isn't.

Because in this country those are the main factors to strike a balance between in my opinion and it works well.

In hotter countries the temperature has to be considered, in countries where traditionally there’s a stay at home parent or a whole family raise the children then less emphasis is placed on struggling parents or low income families if the burden is shared between more family members or holiday club cost isnt such a big concern because there are cheaper options.

Each country does its best to suit the needs of its children and, although I’m not basing 6 weeks being the best balance on scientific evidence or anything, just seems about right to me to balance everyone’s needs to time off, childcare, vulnerability in low income families etc etc and suits what is the “norm” in our society of single parent/two working parent households who largely manage their own childcare.

You can disagree all you like, you're still wrong

It bothers me that people don't understand their own pay and conditions.

You know that's exactly how it works outside of education too? If you're saying it's unpaid because we've already worked our contracted hours, than nobody who works get paid for holiday.

Outside of education if you haven't worked what you are contracted to, you won't get your holiday. Holiday is always earnt before you get it, it's simple. It doesn't mean it's unpaid, it's earnt.

My DH has just started a new job. He is entitled to 20 days off per company year. Starting more than half way through the year so he is entitled to less than 10 days and only gets that entitlement as he earns it, fair enough. My colleague started teaching at our school at the beginning of February and obviously didn't complete 190 pupil facing days and 5 inset days before the summer. She has a full time contract so was paid during the February half term, Easter break and May half term, do you think she'll receive her pay during August or no because according to you she hasn't earnt it?

Realistically no holiday pattern or amount will suit everyone. Longer summer holidays may suit some teachers and children - others children will lose learning or suffer other inequities, and working parents, particularly those in low income, inflexible jobs will struggle. And as we have around the average amount of holidays overall compared to most European countries increasing summer holidays would probably reduce other holidays which based on the number of teacher posts saying they are "on their knees" by half term wouldn't work well either - and my DC certainly needed a break by half term.
I think if any change were to take place it would be worth considering the Scottish system, which brings forward the summer holiday while fixing the Easter break to early April. This means summer holiday is more likely to coincide with the warmer weather. It would obviously mean bringing the exam season forward but there is still time for marking.

@Postre said "It means you've already done all of the work for your salary by working your 190 pupils facing days and 5 INSET, before having the summer off. What they pay you in August has already been earned now!"

You know that's exactly how it works outside of education too? If you're saying it's unpaid because we've already worked our contracted hours, than nobody who works get paid for holiday.

Outside of education if you haven't worked what you are contracted to, you won't get your holiday. Holiday is always earnt before you get it, it's simple. It doesn't mean it's unpaid, it's earnt.

My DH has just started a new job. He is entitled to 20 days off per company year. Starting more than half way through the year so he is entitled to less than 10 days and only gets that entitlement as he earns it, fair enough. My colleague started teaching at our school at the beginning of February and obviously didn't complete 190 pupil facing days and 5 inset days before the summer. She has a full time contract so was paid during the February half term, Easter break and May half term, do you think she'll receive her pay during August or no because according to you she hasn't earnt it?

@MrsHamlet I live in the real world

In my country we have longer summer holidays but stay at home parents are rare, its not a hot country (though the last two weeks have been sweltering, but that's climate change for you), and in most parts of the country there is no summer childcare provision for school age children, let alone cheap provision. We have longer holidays because children need a proper break, even if its difficult for parents, because sometimes we should go with what's best for children rather than adults. For children at risk of neglect, we have social services and a low threshold for intervention (primarily in the form of support within the family).

But why is 6 weeks not a proper break? That is a long time to play outside, rest and relax isn’t it?

@Natsku apologies if I'm wrong, but taking a wild guess from your user name and the country description are you talking about Finland? If so it only has about one more week of holiday overall than the UK, so you have less throughout the year - so surely that is a negative?
And you say "We have longer holidays because children need a proper break, even if its difficult for parents, because sometimes we should go with what's best for children rather than adults" - what actual evidence is there about what is best for children in terms of timing and length of holidays based on outcomes like development, mental health, education etc. We can talk about what we think is best for our children, but there is likely to be huge variety.
And how in reality do parents manage in your country given they work and there is no childcare? Are employers more flexible?

And are you telling me that in your country no children "fall under the radar" of social services? I know those in the nordic countries are much more pro-active and effective in regards to social care, but children remain at risk in all countries.

@Natsku so what happens in the holidays?
Do parents take (unpaid or paid) leave?
Do children left home alone with the eldest child in charge?

10 weeks at once is a proper break, with 6 weeks you barely get time to settle in and relax. We don't have Easter holidays or a 3rd half term though, which is how it evens out, but with the long weekend for Easter and the various public holidays that happen in the spring and with the summer holidays starting beginning of June, the Easter holiday isn't really needed (though a couple more days would be nice), nor a 3rd half term. Its generally considered to be important here to have a long break from school in the summer, when the weather and nature is at its best.
There is a right to more flexibility in work (not sure how it works as I haven't exercised that right, perhaps reduced hours) if you have children under 10 but in reality, if there are no local grandparents, children will spend part of the summer just playing out with friends while their parents work.

Of course there will always be children that fall under the radar (or recently, disappear completely - one family took their children out of foster care and went on the run, but that is so rare that its massive news here) and scandals from overloaded caseworkers missing red flags or not investigating properly, nowhere has a perfect system, but in my experience social services are pretty proactive here, and respond quickly to reports and offer a lot of help. Children are able to seek help themselves too via various helplines. And there are usually youth workers in every town that children can talk to. And as there's a lot of work within schools to help children (each school has a psychologist assigned for instance and children have the right to get an appointment with them within a short time frame, I think a week, and school social workers and counsellors) its easier to pinpoint the children who might be more at risk during the holidays. And with all children getting yearly health check ups at school (and more frequently under school age), less children will slip under the radar in general because warning signs can be spotted more easily.

Parents will take their leave in the summer, a month is the normal amount, and then children will be home alone (unless local retired grandparents), or with siblings, but some might be able to limit that time by sending to summer camp for a week or so, there are some camps that have reduced prices for parents with low incomes but that's still only going to cover a week.

Having worked in schools for 30 years, i don't think a longer summer holiday is beneficial, for a variety of reasons. Adding days onto half terms would work better.

@Natsku The children who play out with friends while their parents work - do the parents generally work from home then or are children being left to their own devices while parents go out to work all day? From what age?

Working from home is getting more common, something like 35% wfh and I expect many of those will work from their summer cottages in the holidays so the children can play there, but the rest are working at their workplaces and children take care of themselves. This is from 1st grade upwards as the summer before 1st grade is the last summer children can go to nursery for care, so 7/8 years old. But children are raised differently here to prepare them for this - they grow up a lot during 1st grade and a lot will be home alone before and after school so get practice before the summer.

I think so much of it is cultural and what we are used to @natsku. You see 10 weeks as "a proper break" as I'm assuming that is what you've always had. We see six weeks as a "proper break". I certainly think it has given my DC adequate time to decompress, and I don't know what criteria I would really use to assess other than the seem relaxed and happy. And my DCs would have been horrified about the lack of holiday the rest of the year as they expect a break every 6-7 weeks - they always seem very ready for it, but that might be just as they are geared up to it.