To think the average man hates women who have standards?

[YourGutsyExpert]

Not just preferences - standards. Boundaries. Self-worth. The vitriol that comes out says it all.

I don’t think the average man does. I think weak, insecure men do.

The ‘average’ man? I don’t know. A very large and significant proportion of men? Absolutely.

I wouldn’t say that the average man believes in that sort of manosphere stuff but too many men struggle with being told no.

Not in my experience no

What vitriol are you referring to?

I've got a partner and plenty of male friends who don't fit your narrow, blanket description. I have had the misfortune of meeting a few men who do, and avoid them wherever possible.

I’m glad your experience has been mostly positive but in many online spaces (and real life too), it’s not unusual to see women being mocked or dismissed simply for having clear standards. The moment a woman says “this is what I want” or “this is what I won’t accept”, she’s often labelled as difficult, entitled or delusional, especially if those standards challenge male convenience or control. It’s not about all men, it’s about a loud, defensive response pattern that’s hard to ignore.

Many men just hate women.

This.

There has been a colossal cultural shift over the last 50 years or so which has empowered women to want to direct their lives as much as men have always done. A sub-section of men - mostly low status men, biologically and socially - have found this cultural shift difficult to accept. YANBU.

Edit: Just to add, the best way to deal with these neanderthals? Completely ignore them and carry on living your best life. Not that that will change them - they’re used to zero female attention.

It depends what you mean. I don't think the average man hates women who have standards: quite the opposite. I think men don't respect women who don't have standards or a sense of self worth and can often see them coming a mile off. Abusive men take advantage of such women but none of them respect them.

I do think, however, there is a sizeable minority of men who instinctively believe women should be subservient to them (whether in a blatant 'know your place' way or in a more insidious 'I have her best interests at heart' way).

A lot of men feel threatened or unsettled by women who know their own mind and aren't afraid to articulate it. And will therefore push back (subtly or not so subtly) against women making their own decisions in life or in a relationship.

Thankfully, not all of them are like this but too many still are.

I think a lot of men do and I think it's getting worse among young men, sadly. This incel stuff is scary as hell. The entitlement is off the charts.

I agree with this, and with @Fancycheese so I'd say that the below average man has a big problem accepting women.

Please define "standards".

Insisting on being treated with respect should obviously be a normal thing to expect from a suitor. Wanting someone prepared to share the burden of housework (assuming that both of you are full-time employed) is likewise fine.

Insisting on only dating someone over six feet tall or who earns a six figure salary is utterly shallow and the men in question would be better off without such a woman.

This

If you're looking at online spaces, that's not representative of real life. Only the loudest voices post and discuss things like this. The majority who have no issues stay away from sites or dont post. All the incel shit just comes from a minority. They're vocal, but thankfully there's not many of them.

Some men do: but if you have the boundaries and standards you’re speaking about women having, you recognise that very early on and don’t have much to do with them after that. It’s not my experience of men generally, because none of the men I know and spend time with have those views or behave that way: I knocked any which did off after the first date, or never came close to developing a friendship.

I think part of the problem can be that many women aren’t actually that sure of their own boundaries and don’t have a lot of self-worth, even if they believe and say they do; and thus end up in relationships with or giving time to men who don’t disrespect or dislike strong women, but are good at picking out the women who think they do but are easily manipulated.

I agree but I also think there are a lot of men who stop way short of being incels but who have an innate sense that men should "lead" in many areas of life.

They may never articulate it or even think it in any conscious way but an awful lot of men still like to be the decision makers in their household/relationship and in the workplace and are uncomfortable with a woman who won't accept this.

Insisting on only dating someone over six feet tall or who earns a six figure salary is utterly shallow and the men in question would be better off without such a woman

Indeed. I've seen similar things expressed as "standards" by MN users, and men who don't measure up described as "low value" men. I can only imagine the meltdowns and histrionics if anyone dared use the term "low value woman" on here.

I think the vast majority of men actually find standards and boundaries in a partner attractive, because it suggests someone who has their act together, and most people, men and women alike, don't want to get into a relationship and find themselves saddled with a partner whose life is a binfire.

What's average?

No I don't agree with you because that's never been my experience. The men I know have less time for weak women and prefer a strong personality, a good sense of humour and a sharp mind. If I did come across such men I would avoid, I've been lucky that way in that my family are not like that at all.

If you are basing this just on online activity then YABU. How would you even know if its men you are talking to if you are online? One thing all the good men I know have in common is they don't spend time online, make of that what you will!

Not all men are like that but it's worrying just how many are. They say they want an intelligent woman but actually, especially if she's smarter than him, they fucking hate them. Some men can't stand the thought that they're not the big clever dick. My DH is disgusted with how men speak to women sometimes. He's thankfully of the type who knows how to treat a woman 😁

I think your follow-up post summed it up pretty well. People can say it's just the weak/bad ones and you can do your best to avoid them in your personal life (may not be able to 100% at school, work, neighbours, etc.) and that's all true. But the very high frequency of how groups of men swarm to viciously attack, discredit, and silence women who speak up about genuine women's issues and needs in cases where these are perceived to clash with (some) men's wants is a definite scourge.

And the toxic dynamic is made worse by the fact that it's ignored or tolerated by society, the media, politicians, the law, etc. and even cheerled by individual women who see going along as the only way to avoid being targeted themselves (and in many cases now, having their families including young children or elderly parents targeted). This pattern hurts individual women and damages the cause of equity, and it also impoverishes our society in that the most regressive and inegalitarian voices are artificially amplified and voices that may not be mainstream and powerful are effectively silenced (and many will never speak up in the first place because of fear). I do think more men are starting to speak up, though.

Perfect, me too.

I haven't seen any evidence of this. Most sane people have standards for the people they date and pretending we don't is silly.

I think some men consider women to be entitled, without good reason. Also some women think men need to up their game significantly. Dating is a market and you have to put in some effort, whether you're a man or a woman. it could be disheartening if a guy has been fed the propaganda about women wanting the world from a normal chap when he mistakenly thinks a woman is like that. Not making excuses but we all see the situation through the lens of what we're reading on the interweb.

Not at all. They love to think that a woman has standards. The problems start when they erroneously believe they are the man the woman should feel meets them.

Bullshit. Lazy cocklodgers who don’t work, wash or do housework, yes. 5’ 11” men who earn 50k a year? Bollocks.

I think mediocre men hate it. And sadly there is a lot of mediocre men.