Thread 2: Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[Underbudget]

Darn it the thread filled and I wanted to ask @tandora a question. Is this within site rules to start another to do this as I don't seem to be able to tag her? Feel free to report/delete if it is.

Previous thread here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5372111-why-cant-people-respect-the-rules-around-toilets?page=1

'Tandora · Today 07:51

Eh? Mental health is everyone’s concern that’s why we have a health system.

No one’s rights come “first”- we need to find solutions that respect everyone’s rights.

There is no “female suffering” involved in respecting and including trans people. It will have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever.'

I wondered @Tandora if you'd read my post earlier on that thread, where in my head, children's rights come first? As the basic premise of child protection?

My post (in response to a different poster) if you missed it, was this:

Underbudget · Today 00:51

Slow to reply and expect thread has moved on, but surely you can empathise with a girl victim of csa feeling terrifed at finding themselves alone with a very male bodied person in a public loo between them and the door? Why does that child's feelings mean less than the adult males?
And what if that particular male bodied person WAS a rapist? That people saw entering from the outside but didn't want to "offend" by challenging them. And a child was born from a child as a result?
Doesn't a child's right to safety and protection come before ANY adult's feelings? Especially when a child can be born from rape as a result? As could ONLY happen to a female?
Fellow survivor of CSA here so I can understand you may have issues in thinking around this. I have spent years in therapy due to being overtrusting because my boundaries were fucked.'

I genuinely want to be in a place where all rights are respected, but I can't personally process this risk in any way that makes sense to me. I simply cannot agree with or process that allowing a male bodied person, unsupervised access to a child victim of CSA in a vulnerable space, whether a real or a perceived risk, does not harm that child. As a male, they are not being discriminated against on the basis of their sex, as ALL males are excluded from that situation, rightfully so. No right minded person believes all males are rapists, just as and no right minded person believes all transwomen are. But some of both ARE and that's a fact. I accept that a trans person may feel excluded from having their social transition recognised by not being allowed in the single sex spaces of the gender of their choosing, but equally, a girl in that situation also feels distressed. Why does that adults discomfort trump the discomfort felt by the child? A trans person deserves somewhere safe to go to the loo, but that's not in the women's loos. If that protects just one single child from reliving horrific trauma or worse, then that's what has to happen.

I would truly like to understand your view, ideally in a way that acknowledges the trauma of a child in this situation.

Tbf, Tandora has referred to Dr Upton several times as he and him. Which does suggest that with the best will in the world its very difficult to accept a man as a woman, even in discussion. Never mind in the women's changing room.

Gender stereotyping is harmful and has been informed by patriarchy , in ways that have caused violence and oppression, limiting the rights of women, girls and gender non-conforming people. We can change this by recognising diversity, challenging stereotypes, and respecting the full humanity and dignity of all people regardless of their body or identity.

YES!!! You are so close!!

Now explain to me where "respecting the full humanity and dignity of all people regardless of their body or identity." requires that some people's wonderful diversity should have the label "man" and others shoudl have the label "woman" at all? Surely is this is what you aspire to, you just want to get rid of those nasty limiting labels altogether?

I simply want to be allowed to continue to have spaces, rights and protections that respect the needs of people with female bodies, a political and legal presence and a social voice for people with female bodies, and a name that connects my reality as an embodied female to the social, cultural and political history of female bodied people, which is meaningful and significant.

I absolutely agree you should have all these things. I want them too. But I wholeheartedly disagree / reject the idea that recognising trans people would deny you or me things things ,
and that therefore the only way to achieve this for you or me is to destroy the ability for trans women to have the same.

There is room for both. We can accommodate both.

This is why I don’t actually disagree with the SC judgements that there should be a separate protected characteristic for non trans women on the basis of birth sex.

I just wildly disagree that this mandates that in all circumstances where men and women are treated differently trans people must be treated according to their birth sex.

That is completely destroying the very reasonable thing that you are asking for yourself for trans people, which is:

• to be allowed to continue to have spaces, rights and protections that respect their needs, a political and legal presence and a social voice, and a name that connects their reality as an embodied person to a broader social, cultural and political history, which is meaningful and significant.*

Yes I noticed I did this too and could t go back and edit. It was because other people in the conversation were doing this, so naturally without thinking and quickly responded I responded the same. But yes it is also easy to misgender people. It’s obviously distressing for trans people but I’ve always found them completely gracious about it except for where it’s done with intent

I'm not trying to score points with you. My comment was genuine. Even you slipped and went with the instinctive truth of he/him, even in the context of a discussion where Dr Upton's 'right' to be considered a she/her is absolutely central. Yet you hold women like SP to higher standards, expecting them to treat the doctor as a woman at all times, even where their own dignity and privacy is compromised.

No. I explained why I misgendered them.

however, I also acknowledged It is easy to subconsciously misgender people and as long as it’s not done intentionally that’s totally understandable.

What this nurse did was not unintentional, it was deliberate and premeditated. So there’s absolutely no meaningful comparison

Transwomen are men so yes banning them from women's toilets andvother womens spaces makes women and kids safer because as we all know men commit most sexual offences by a huge margin.

It's not difficult to understand, it's not complicated.

Transwomen are men.They are appropriating women's identities.

Transwomen are men. They are a risk to women and kids because of their maleness.

Transwomen are men, so misogynists put their need to get their own way above the rights, dignity and privacy of women.

Transwomen are men. There are already cases of them raping women and kids. That's not a moral panic, that is fact.

Of course women's rights should be absolutely paramount in women's facilities. Transwomen are not women, they need their own facilities and they need to sort them out themselves.

Transwomen are men. Biological fact. They don't belong in women's sports, hospital wards, prisons or toilets.

It is utterly indefensible and shows a real deep seated hatred of women to suggest that women should have to be put at heightened risk or even made uncomfortable by men in women only spaces, just to appease those men's feelings.

Let's put women first. Men, including those masquerading as women have been putting us second for long enough.

👏👏

Appose?

If you genuinely accept that a person is a man or a woman you don't subconsciously misgender them, as your subconscious and conscious align. It's only when you know deep down the person isn't the sex they're presenting as that you do this. I bet you've never subconsciously misgendered your mum or your sister or Sandi Peggie. You know Dr Uptons sex, and so did Sandi, and she didn't want to change in front of a person of the opposite sex.

..........there should be a separate protected characteristic for non trans women on the basis of birth sex.

What the hell are non-transwomen?

This, this and well, this.

This thread is so heartening and inspiring to me. So many strong, clever women who stand as part of a long tradition in this country of promoting women’s rights, and who have clearly done their research and thought deeply about the issues.

It’s just a bit depressing that we have all had to become such experts on these issues in order to make our voices heard. It makes me feel even more strongly that it’s my duty to stand up for women who aren’t in a position to do that for various reasons.

The lack of understanding of the SC judgment (and gender critical feminism) by the few voices who disagree is also rather noticeable. It’s why the contrary arguments have been absolutely destroyed when actually tested in court by barristers like Naomi Cunningham when “no debate” isn’t an option any more.

This is why I don’t actually disagree with the SC judgements that there should be a separate protected characteristic for non trans women on the basis of birth sex.

THERE ALREADY IS.

It's called being a member of the female sex. It's already covered in the Equality Act. Trans women are not included in it and that is exactly what you and your pals are all up in arms about.

I just wildly disagree that this mandates that in all circumstances where men and women are treated differently trans people must be treated according to their birth sex.

Either you distinguish between men and women or you don't.

Women plus male people who believe they identify as women isn't a coherent category. There's no point to this grouping, no reason for it to exist other than to validate those male people in their belief that they are something they are not.

If you want to create a grouping for trans women plus women who want to stroke their egos, knock yourself out. But you can't use the word "women" because it means something else already.

@MyCleverCat ‘It’s just a bit depressing that we have all had to become such experts on these issues in order to make our voices heard. It makes me feel even more strongly that it’s my duty to stand up for women who aren’t in a position to do that for various reasons.’

Couldn’t agree with you more. I thought the Supreme Court verdict would be the end of me having to do research on what goes on in toilets. Sometimes it can be funny in a bizarre way when you think you’ve heard everything (eg. carrots and what people were doing to them closing, yet another, public toilet)?!? But most of all it is incredibly sad and depressing, particularly the deaths and the assaults when you wondered if they could have been prevented. Especially the children.

What people don’t get is that adding the odd unisex toilet here and there is not a ‘neutral’ act. There can be negative consequences that will affect the most vulnerable.

The idea of gender-neutral toilets as some sort of social justice cause came from America. There are some disturbing articles from two influential designers that shows their mindsets have no relation to health and safety in toilets. These are not articles I imagined I would be studying when I was looking at why door gaps were disappearing for those with invisible disabilities.

I don’t know why you spend so much time replying to me since you never engage with the substance of anything I say. Is it really fulfilling just shouting the same points over and over to an anonymous person online?

you misgender someone when their appearance doesn’t conform to social expectations about gender.

in this case I misgendered Dr U because other people were misgendering her and I was participating in a rapid back and forth without thinking.

Sandi Peggie didn’t want to change in front of Dr U so she could have waited. She could have gone into the toilet to clean herself up (as she claimed she so desperately needed to do) and by the time she came out Dr U may have been gone. Instead she decided to confront her, for not looking right, for not being right, for not conforming to her expectations , her demands about how a person - a woman - should be. What her body should be. Dr U was allowed to change in that room as agreed with her employer, and peggie knew that. she didn’t have to harass her about it. She could have just waited.

Oppose

What's hilarious about the latest unhinged nonsense from TRA's (one is threatening to storm the courtroom and do a citizen's arrest on those who are 'misgendering' Dr Upton) is that the majority of those who would be subject to said arrest would be his own legal team and witnesses.

Oh no, Dr Upton's contemporanous notes also detailed when women waited outside the changing room until he had finished using the spaces. Sandie was subject to the same witchhunt for waiting.

Males using women as validation is the name of the game for him!

Give it up Tands, NHS Fife have shown themelves to be incompetent, credulous, venal fools over the last couple of days. The walls they are a-crumbling.

and people wonder why some trans people are so angry

So warped

Are you denying he took notes of when women waited outside the changing rooms? It's all detailed in the employment tribunal.

If he wasn't looking for women to be in the same space while he used it (for validation), why did he note that down as a detail?

Maybe she felt that people were trying to make a point / show of it all to humiliate/ bully her.? Why would she even be aware of this if they weren’t making a show of it?

Anyways, I’m checking out of this thread at this juncture, as while the conversation about law was of interest and somewhat civilised, this conversation is in the absolute gutter.

I’m really not interested in listening to people justify the public harassment of trans women , maliciously misgendering them, and calling them narcissistic , boundary crossing predatory men for simply using the women’s changers to get changed . Not good for mental health and zen to be exposed to this sort of poison .

Good night all.

Oh, btw and he's a liar as well as determined by the internal disciplinary investigation.

Night hen!