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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thread 2: Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

497 replies

Underbudget · 13/07/2025 09:31

Darn it the thread filled and I wanted to ask @tandora a question. Is this within site rules to start another to do this as I don't seem to be able to tag her? Feel free to report/delete if it is.

Previous thread here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5372111-why-cant-people-respect-the-rules-around-toilets?page=1

'Tandora · Today 07:51

Eh? Mental health is everyone’s concern that’s why we have a health system.

No one’s rights come “first”- we need to find solutions that respect everyone’s rights.

There is no “female suffering” involved in respecting and including trans people. It will have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever.'

I wondered @Tandora if you'd read my post earlier on that thread, where in my head, children's rights come first? As the basic premise of child protection?

My post (in response to a different poster) if you missed it, was this:

Underbudget · Today 00:51

Slow to reply and expect thread has moved on, but surely you can empathise with a girl victim of csa feeling terrifed at finding themselves alone with a very male bodied person in a public loo between them and the door? Why does that child's feelings mean less than the adult males?
And what if that particular male bodied person WAS a rapist? That people saw entering from the outside but didn't want to "offend" by challenging them. And a child was born from a child as a result?
Doesn't a child's right to safety and protection come before ANY adult's feelings? Especially when a child can be born from rape as a result? As could ONLY happen to a female?
Fellow survivor of CSA here so I can understand you may have issues in thinking around this. I have spent years in therapy due to being overtrusting because my boundaries were fucked.'

I genuinely want to be in a place where all rights are respected, but I can't personally process this risk in any way that makes sense to me. I simply cannot agree with or process that allowing a male bodied person, unsupervised access to a child victim of CSA in a vulnerable space, whether a real or a perceived risk, does not harm that child. As a male, they are not being discriminated against on the basis of their sex, as ALL males are excluded from that situation, rightfully so. No right minded person believes all males are rapists, just as and no right minded person believes all transwomen are. But some of both ARE and that's a fact. I accept that a trans person may feel excluded from having their social transition recognised by not being allowed in the single sex spaces of the gender of their choosing, but equally, a girl in that situation also feels distressed. Why does that adults discomfort trump the discomfort felt by the child? A trans person deserves somewhere safe to go to the loo, but that's not in the women's loos. If that protects just one single child from reliving horrific trauma or worse, then that's what has to happen.

I would truly like to understand your view, ideally in a way that acknowledges the trauma of a child in this situation.

Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!? | Mumsnet

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one f...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5372111-why-cant-people-respect-the-rules-around-toilets?page=1

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5
FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 14:15

Tandora · 19/07/2025 13:35

I was trying to edit, but got cut off. I wanted to edit -

In some senses it is right to say that the sexist shit that happens to us happens because of our bodies, because patriarchy has assigned certain meanings and roles to our bodies, and used those meanings/ roles to demand that we stay in our place. This is why - to naturalise those categories, that meaning, those roles, "woman is an adult, human, female" is to locate that shit in our bodies instead of in the world. It is to naturalise that sexist shit itself. But that sexist shit is not natural, it's a product of patriarchy. Patriarchy has created the illusion that it is natural in order to facilitate our oppression, to keep us in our box, to demand that we conform to the roles/categories which patriarchy has assigned to us. But we don't need to be constrained by them, and in fact they are an illusion, because being female is not one singular thing and there is no singular way to make meaning of being female - how a female person must experience the world or how they must live. Female is a category, and important category, a material category, a biological category and a social category. In the sense that we recognise it as important, we assign a word to it. That word creates a meaning, that process of meaning making is creative, it is changeable, it is gender. This is why another binary framework that is too simple and too reductive is the separation of 'sex' from 'gender': of the 'body' from the 'social world', of the 'mind', from the 'body. All of these things are fundamentally intertwined and interconnected in complex and inseparable ways.

Edited

Oh @Tandora , that is Gender Criticism.

WaitedBlankey · 19/07/2025 14:27

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 14:15

Oh @Tandora , that is Gender Criticism.

I did have a bit of a laugh as Tandora wrote out the beliefs of gender critical feminism as an argument against gender critical feminism.

But we don't need to be constrained by them, and in fact they are an illusion, because being female is not one singular thing and there is no singular way to make meaning of being female

^ that's exactly the GC point. The only thing that unites women is being female, and there are as many ways of being female as there are women. Masculine women, feminine women, too old for this shit women, sporty women, rarely leaves the sofa women, professional women, full time carer women, clever women, dim women, same sex attracted women, opposite sex attracted women, women not attracted to anyone, women attracted to both sexes, any and every type of women.

That's why a transwoman can never be a woman - not having the sole criteria of a female body.

Tandora · 19/07/2025 14:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 14:14

I use "Genderist" to mean someone who believes Gender exists as a meaingingful and positive mental gender/gender identity that is a discrete and separate thing to gendered socialisation based on sex, that this Gender is an important differentiator between humans and is a positive thing which should be respected and embedded into our culture with more weight and authority than sex, and that it is Gender rather than sex that determines "woman" and "man" as distinct types of people.

That contrasts with "Gender Critical" which means seeing gender as an entirely social construction based in sexism, and as such a negative thing which has to be acknowledged and to the degree that it has real world impacts on both men and women worked within, but is ultimately a restriction and limitation of the human potential of both sexes, both in limiting how we see ouselves and how others see and treat us, and in obscuring real structural reasons that the sexes end up with gendered outcomes -(for example, if you believe that women naturally prefer to be the default parent, you won't notice all the social expectations and working practices that subtly make being the non-default parent harder for women than men)- and as such the ultimate end goal is to move beyond at and then the sex-based protections that exist to mitigate these gendered harms will not be needed any more.

But to say all of the sexist shit that happens to us happens to us because of our bodies - to locate that shit in our bodies - is to naturalise that sexist shit itself.
But that sexist shit is not natural, it's a product of patriarchy. Patriarchy has created the illusion that it is natural in order to facilitate our oppression

I mean yeah, that is Gender Critical 101 😂Pretty sure I posted almost those exact words within the last few days in the Sex Realist/Gender Critical thread.

And I literally said, in the post you replied to "The sexist shit happened and still happens to female bodied people happened and happens because of our bodies , how society reacts to our bodies and how we grow to understand our own selves within those experiences and we can't identify out of that because it doesn't start from inside us,"

I'm not sure how you read how society reacts to our bodies and how we grow to understand our own selves within those experiences as "that sexist shot is natural" because I'm saying the exact opposite. Gender is the sexist shit, and no it's not natural.

Haha I like the concept of the meme. Very clever. Only, ofc, I would exactly replace the label "genderism" with "GC feminism".

Thank you. But you see, that would not make sense because Gender itself is a constuct of Patriachy. The belief that men and women have different minds was constructed out of the Patriachal belief that men and women are different in ways beyond our bodies.

Think about it. If Gender Identity came first and the idea that the Woman Gender Identify gets assigned to female bodies and Man to to male was just an invention of Patriachy, why would someone's mind be a "Man" or a "Woman" in the first place? Why the binary? It makes no sense at all. It only makes sense the other way round, that Patriachy constructed the gender differences between men and women to both justify and enforce the Patriachial social ideas. And so all Genderist is doing is swapping Patriachial ideas around. It's not challenging the fundamental beliefs beneath them.

The idea of a "Gender spectrum" is still ultimately agreeing with Patriachy that gendered behaviours are real. To use a trivial example from another thread, it's arguing about whether being at the bad and maths and liking pink end of the scale goes with a female body exclusively, and never thinking to ask why bad at maths and liking pink even go together at all.

In my head I imagine a football pitch. Patriarchy designed the field and set the rules. Genderists are still following the rules, they are just asking to swap ends like a football match at half time. Gender Critical feminists are saying - "Hey guys this shed has rugby balls and ribbons and mountainbikes and throwing balls and hurdles and beanbags and OMG is that a hangglider??? and has anyone noticed there's a whole big field outside this pitch we aren't using with space for people to play lots of different games all at the same time, and doesn't anyone think we should try playing something other than football now?"

I use "Genderist" to mean someone who believes Gender exists as a meaningful and positive mental gender/gender identity that is a discrete and separate thing to gendered socialisation based on sex, that this Gender is an important differentiator between humans and is a positive thing which should be respected and embedded into our culture with more weight and authority than sex, and that it is Gender rather than sex that determines "woman" and "man" as distinct types of people.

So I didn't understand most of this.

One thing I did understand and I can certainly tell you I don't believe is this:

"gender is..a positive thing which should be respected and embedded into our culture with more weight and authority than sex".

Gender is neither "positive" or "negative", that makes no sense any more than it would make any sense to say that sex is a "positive thing". And it also make no sense to say that "gender should be given more weight and authority than sex".

Tandora · 19/07/2025 14:29

WaitedBlankey · 19/07/2025 14:27

I did have a bit of a laugh as Tandora wrote out the beliefs of gender critical feminism as an argument against gender critical feminism.

But we don't need to be constrained by them, and in fact they are an illusion, because being female is not one singular thing and there is no singular way to make meaning of being female

^ that's exactly the GC point. The only thing that unites women is being female, and there are as many ways of being female as there are women. Masculine women, feminine women, too old for this shit women, sporty women, rarely leaves the sofa women, professional women, full time carer women, clever women, dim women, same sex attracted women, opposite sex attracted women, women not attracted to anyone, women attracted to both sexes, any and every type of women.

That's why a transwoman can never be a woman - not having the sole criteria of a female body.

I did have a bit of a laugh as Tandora wrote out the beliefs of gender critical feminism as an argument against gender critical feminism.

Ah ok well if we are back to that I am out.

What a waste of time.

HatThatWearsYou · 19/07/2025 14:41

That word that Tandora wants to call us that Tandora can't use because Tandora has had posts deleted for it is Fascist.

Tandora thinks we are Fascists for wanting women's rights which are exclusive to trans identified males.

However Tandora keeps slipping up and showing that Tandora in fact actually agrees with a lot of our points (which remember Tandora considers Fascist views).

Been spending a lot of time shouting Fascist at yourself in the mirror recently Tandora? 😂 (DISCLAIMER: I don't know if Tandora will remember but this comment is in reference to a joke I made about self reflection during the discussion on the Women's Olympic Boxing threads. Tandora called us Fascist for our views and then later agreed with many of them. Tandora found my joke very funny at the time, but I don't think it really prompted the actual self reflection I would have hoped. I am not actually trying to being offensive by using the word Fascist, nor am I actually calling Tandora a Fascist.)

There have been so many points I could go through in your posts to poke holes in but frankly why bother?

Although regarding your correct sexing of Dr Upton earlier (what you call misgendering), you think that you'll be forgiven because the genderists are very forgiving to those on their side who make a mistake but didn't intend to cause offense. Your excuse which you believe will absolve you is basically "Some big girls tricked me into saying it, I didn't mean it really!". I'd like to direct your attention to Isla Bumba who has been a true believer, and stalwart soldier for the gender ideology side. And yet, she has been pilloried on trans Reddit boards for doing the exact same thing as you. She's not the first to have fallen foul of this ridiculously rigid ideology for similar minor infractions, she won't be the last. I think you'd be daft to believe you'd be any safer from the same ostracism.

Cheery bye! 😁

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 14:42

Tandora · 19/07/2025 14:28

I use "Genderist" to mean someone who believes Gender exists as a meaningful and positive mental gender/gender identity that is a discrete and separate thing to gendered socialisation based on sex, that this Gender is an important differentiator between humans and is a positive thing which should be respected and embedded into our culture with more weight and authority than sex, and that it is Gender rather than sex that determines "woman" and "man" as distinct types of people.

So I didn't understand most of this.

One thing I did understand and I can certainly tell you I don't believe is this:

"gender is..a positive thing which should be respected and embedded into our culture with more weight and authority than sex".

Gender is neither "positive" or "negative", that makes no sense any more than it would make any sense to say that sex is a "positive thing". And it also make no sense to say that "gender should be given more weight and authority than sex".

As a very bsaic example, when you say that a single sex space can include trans women, you are giving gender more authority than sex.

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:00

HatThatWearsYou · 19/07/2025 14:41

That word that Tandora wants to call us that Tandora can't use because Tandora has had posts deleted for it is Fascist.

Tandora thinks we are Fascists for wanting women's rights which are exclusive to trans identified males.

However Tandora keeps slipping up and showing that Tandora in fact actually agrees with a lot of our points (which remember Tandora considers Fascist views).

Been spending a lot of time shouting Fascist at yourself in the mirror recently Tandora? 😂 (DISCLAIMER: I don't know if Tandora will remember but this comment is in reference to a joke I made about self reflection during the discussion on the Women's Olympic Boxing threads. Tandora called us Fascist for our views and then later agreed with many of them. Tandora found my joke very funny at the time, but I don't think it really prompted the actual self reflection I would have hoped. I am not actually trying to being offensive by using the word Fascist, nor am I actually calling Tandora a Fascist.)

There have been so many points I could go through in your posts to poke holes in but frankly why bother?

Although regarding your correct sexing of Dr Upton earlier (what you call misgendering), you think that you'll be forgiven because the genderists are very forgiving to those on their side who make a mistake but didn't intend to cause offense. Your excuse which you believe will absolve you is basically "Some big girls tricked me into saying it, I didn't mean it really!". I'd like to direct your attention to Isla Bumba who has been a true believer, and stalwart soldier for the gender ideology side. And yet, she has been pilloried on trans Reddit boards for doing the exact same thing as you. She's not the first to have fallen foul of this ridiculously rigid ideology for similar minor infractions, she won't be the last. I think you'd be daft to believe you'd be any safer from the same ostracism.

Cheery bye! 😁

However Tandora keeps slipping up and showing that Tandora in fact actually agrees with a lot of our points

Dear @HatThatWearsYou . There are many aspects of gender critical feminism that I do agree with. This isn't 'slipping up', it's a true reflection of my position. The conversation I was having with @FlirtsWithRhinos was to emphasise points of consensus, and to identify those where we diverge.

There are many aspects of gender critical feminism that I agree with. However, there are some essential flaws/ assumptions within the gender critical framework which are leading to the increasingly repressive political and legal reforms that we have been seeing since around 2016 when the 'trans' argument first exploded over proposals to reform processes for legal gender transition, and 'gender critical feminism' started to become popular as a movement in theory and in activism.

It is true that I have learned that I cannot speak plainly when discussing my opinion of the gender critical movement, as gender critical feminists have established that they have exclusive rights to name their theory in language that suits them ("gender critical feminism"), and to heavily censor the boundaries of its critique.
Meanwhile, I am resigned to being called a "TRA", a "genderist", "meninist", "MRA" or whatever else people chose in the moment - none of which are labels that I identity with - and it's pretty much the wild west in terms of what passes for legitimate critique of a "TRA". But such is where we are at in law and in polite society in the present moment. This too shall pass.

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:12

HatThatWearsYou · 19/07/2025 14:41

That word that Tandora wants to call us that Tandora can't use because Tandora has had posts deleted for it is Fascist.

Tandora thinks we are Fascists for wanting women's rights which are exclusive to trans identified males.

However Tandora keeps slipping up and showing that Tandora in fact actually agrees with a lot of our points (which remember Tandora considers Fascist views).

Been spending a lot of time shouting Fascist at yourself in the mirror recently Tandora? 😂 (DISCLAIMER: I don't know if Tandora will remember but this comment is in reference to a joke I made about self reflection during the discussion on the Women's Olympic Boxing threads. Tandora called us Fascist for our views and then later agreed with many of them. Tandora found my joke very funny at the time, but I don't think it really prompted the actual self reflection I would have hoped. I am not actually trying to being offensive by using the word Fascist, nor am I actually calling Tandora a Fascist.)

There have been so many points I could go through in your posts to poke holes in but frankly why bother?

Although regarding your correct sexing of Dr Upton earlier (what you call misgendering), you think that you'll be forgiven because the genderists are very forgiving to those on their side who make a mistake but didn't intend to cause offense. Your excuse which you believe will absolve you is basically "Some big girls tricked me into saying it, I didn't mean it really!". I'd like to direct your attention to Isla Bumba who has been a true believer, and stalwart soldier for the gender ideology side. And yet, she has been pilloried on trans Reddit boards for doing the exact same thing as you. She's not the first to have fallen foul of this ridiculously rigid ideology for similar minor infractions, she won't be the last. I think you'd be daft to believe you'd be any safer from the same ostracism.

Cheery bye! 😁

As for the ridiculous diatribe at the end - I'm not seeking absolution for misgendering Dr Upton 😂and I'm certainly not worried about people on reddit.
Since I do not believe in the 'gender ideology' movement, I am not the least bit afraid of it coming to get me. That's your boogie man, not mine.

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:20

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 14:42

As a very bsaic example, when you say that a single sex space can include trans women, you are giving gender more authority than sex.

Even if I did accept your terms - that there is a such a thing called 'gender', which is separable from such a thing called 'sex' - I don't accept these terms (I was trying to explain why in my previous post). But for the sake of argument and simplicity of illustration - say I did.

My position would be that there needs to be a balance. We cannot have a situation where one obliterates the other.

So to hold position A) that -

A) in all situations where men and women are treated differently in society we must enforce this always and everywhere by birth sex - that would be a situation where sex obliterates gender.

Equally to hold a position B) that
B) in all situations where men and women are treated differently in society, we can never arrange this by birth sex - that would be gender obliterating sex.

Both are unreasonable and intolerable positions to hold. I believe that the SC court judgement meant to clarify that B) is NOT the status quo. Thus far, and to that extent I agree with it.

But people are now insisting it must imply A) and that is unacceptable. And also impractical/ unenforceable.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 19/07/2025 15:41

Waitwhat23 · 19/07/2025 01:10

Oh, btw and he's a liar as well as determined by the internal disciplinary investigation.

Night hen!

🤣🤣🤣

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:49

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 19/07/2025 15:41

🤣🤣🤣

From Peggie's own testimony:

JR Are you aware of grievances or violence against DU?
SP No and no
JR Nor of sexual harassment?
SP No
....
JR U have negative feelings towards her dont you?
SP No
SP I only have a problem w the CR
JR No record of DU's bad behaviour?
SP No
JR Beth said no issues re DU's interactions w patients. Unremitting praise from ED?
SP Yes, she has a rep as being caring?
JR a good dr?
SP yes, so I've heard
JR Nothing to say uncaring?
SP No
...
No evidence that DU is anything but a lovely person and a lovely Dr.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 15:57

@Tandora

Coming back to this

Where we diverge is that to you 'woman' is just a 'word' whereas, 'female' is something crucially important. But, as with so much theory, that is too simple, too neat, too binary, too reductive a framework to reflect reality. In fact, both 'woman' and 'female' are just words, and at the same time, they both mean something important, something material, something that matters in the real world.

You misunderstand. "Woman", "female", "word 😂" - they are all just words. What matters is what they label.

But even then, "what they label" is a tricky subject: material reality exists but the way we label it nevertheless frames how we experience it in quite profound ways. So there are labels which are pretty uncontroversially 1 to 1 with the material reality labelled: "a ball", "grass" etc. Then there are concepts which come into being with their labels: "Truth", "Justice", "The Hogfather", that type of thing. And these are products of culture and may not exist the same, or even at all, in all cultures.

And between the two, there are labels that apply to the world of material things but subdivide or group them in arbitary ways: there is a sex binary and we cannot by a label make a male person female, but we can culturally decide that Man and Woman is enough, or we can split those groups up into subdivisions, or we can decide that some DSDs should be called "Intersex" and treated as such even though the material reality is that they are of one biological sex or the other. We can create groups that cross them as well, but those groups cannot escape the reality that some members will still be materially male and some will still be materially female and there is no science in the world yet that can make one into the other.

Ignoring the Dr U's, India W's and "Legal Sexes" of this world who seek to muddy the water, the word "Female" is attached to one of those material facts, the existence of female human beings.

And those people, the female human beings, because of their bodies, have been born into not just the physical capabilities of the female body rather than the male, but also the social and cultural legacy that Patriachy created for them and that, despite not being in any way a natural outcome of their bodies, nevertheless hurts and limits them both in how they are treated and in how they come to think about themselves, the risks they face and therefore also what they allow themselves to risk.

And so they need to be recognised as a meaningful group, and to be allowed to talk about their experiences and challanges, what it is to be them, how they are hurt or marginalised in ways that are specific to or coloured by their sex and the mechanics through which this happens, and where necessary to have protections and rights and supports that are also specific to their sex to mitigate the challenges that they face because of their sex.

That is what is important to me, not the word "female" but those people, however they are labelled, for all the reasons I have stated.

And there is NOTHING Genderists can do to dislodge that belief and that priority for me because it rests in those material facts and they cannot change. One because it's built into our existence as human animals and is with the current state of applied biology immutable, the other because it happened so is with the current state of applied physics immutable.

They both mean something important, something material, something that matters in the real world.

"Female", "Woman" in the original sense both mean something material.

Does "Woman" in the sense you use it, an factual and disembodied Gender that is not just the ugly remnants of the sexist constructs that Patriachy built so deeply into our culture but something worth honouring and preserving, mean something important? Clearly yes. Something does not have to be materal or even real to be important. I don't believe God ever existed but people still built cathedrals and died in his name and those were real and material.

Is "Woman" or "Gender" material in the sense of a pre-culture, pre-language fact of the physical world? I don't know.

But it doesn't matter. I don't need to know if it is "real" outside the constructions of sexism or not, I only need to know that even if it is "real", it is still not the same thing as being female.

And that is all the distinction I need to be able to say with absolute fairness and validity "No, female people cannot be treated interchangeablly with men who claim to be women because there are many many things that female people deal with that those men do not and this cannot all be subsumed into some sort of mixed sex Gender based on sexist beliefs in the diffence between men and women's characters"

So for "Female". And now to "Woman".

I often say I'm not going to argue about who is or is not a "Woman" because at the end of the day it is just a word, and what is important is that Female people exist and have all the challenges and therefore all the moral rights to be understood to be different to trans women that I have outlined above.

I say this so we don't go down stupid sidetracks about "what is a woman" and "genitals" and "but DSDs" and all that bollocks that distracts with edge cases when the manifest and undeniable truth is that humanity managed and still manages to find a good enough working definition of us to oppress us, and for me the importance of Feminism and Women's Rights is to support those people, so that good enough working definition is going to be exactly the right one for me to use as well.

But it isn't entirely true. I do care about the word "Woman". Not because it has some mystical emotional connect to me such that I need to have it to feel seen as who I am, but simply because all the history and culture of female people ws written under that name, so we need it to understand that link between what happened to us in the past and what happens to us now. It is not fair to break that.

The reality is no trans "woman" was ever denied the vote because he was a woman, no trans woman was locked behind the purdah screen or faced the FGM knife because he was a woman or a girl, no trans woman was ever told as a child he couldn't do something because girls can't do that, no author wrote a story where the little girl who was being told to pack the picnic was a trans girl.

Our history shaped the world we were born into and our journey through life makes us what we are. Our sex and the risks that come with it and how people react to use because of it is part of our journey (both male and female) from the day we are born and

And that matters. Trans women's story is NOT female people's story. It is not fair to us to implictly rewrite our history and our lived reality, making it impossible to tell the real story of what happened to us and why and how that affectes what we face today, simply to valiadte trans women's sense of self however real that self may be to them and materially.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/07/2025 16:01

So lovely he kept records of the women who didn't want to take their clothes off in front of him.

spannasaurus · 19/07/2025 16:05

"A transgender doctor has been accused of trying to destroy the 30-year career of a nurse who objected after they shared a female changing room.
Dr Beth Upton “told a pack of lies” to punish Sandie Peggie after the nurse complained about her colleague using the same facilities as her, a tribunal in Dundee was told.
Upton raised formal concerns about patient safety eight months after an incident involving Peggie but denied trying to get her struck off."

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.02.12-195610/www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=cb040a48eb933eca4ab109d11a1c2736" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2025.02.12-195610/www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=cb040a48eb933eca4ab109d11a1c273

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 19/07/2025 16:16

Tandora · 19/07/2025 14:29

I did have a bit of a laugh as Tandora wrote out the beliefs of gender critical feminism as an argument against gender critical feminism.

Ah ok well if we are back to that I am out.

What a waste of time.

Edited

You're always saying that you're leaving us, hen.

Tandora · 19/07/2025 16:17

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:49

From Peggie's own testimony:

JR Are you aware of grievances or violence against DU?
SP No and no
JR Nor of sexual harassment?
SP No
....
JR U have negative feelings towards her dont you?
SP No
SP I only have a problem w the CR
JR No record of DU's bad behaviour?
SP No
JR Beth said no issues re DU's interactions w patients. Unremitting praise from ED?
SP Yes, she has a rep as being caring?
JR a good dr?
SP yes, so I've heard
JR Nothing to say uncaring?
SP No
...
No evidence that DU is anything but a lovely person and a lovely Dr.

Oh and look SP is a Trumpster. How am I not surprised.

JR - back to DU note 'says she feels intimidated by me, women's CR
others feel the same. Told her I was very sorry'. DU acknowledging you felt intimidated.
SP - yes
JR that's an empathic response, DU understood your feelings , and had permission, why did you carry on to make the comments. You chose to make a number of comments, you chose to carry on, why did you do that.
SP I was hoping that DU could understand how I and others felt, DU was sorry but appeared to show no understanding..... said had been given permission to use the CR,
JR - DU was simply asserting the truth that had been given permission
SP - that's correct
....
JR - do you accept that calling DU a man, that not a woman is likely to cause immense distress
SP - when I'm in the situation, feeling intimidated and embarrassed, I needed to explain that he was a man
JR - did not answer my question, is it offensive
SP - it's the truth
JR - the truth is it is profoundly offensive to call a TW a man, it undermines her dignity
SP - my dignity was also undermined by DU being in the DR
JR - you've ignored by question about DU's dignity
SP - my dignity as a female is important to me
JR aren't all human beings entitled to dignity, and all trans people
SP - correct
.....

JR - 'tells me she wouldn't change in front of men, has bad experience of men, then when I say I understand, she cuts me off and says that I don't
really understand and sympathise' did you do that
SP - I'm not sure about the exact words, but that was the substance of the exchange
JR - you said yesterday that DU was indifferent to you, but expressed sympathy, that's not indifference
SP - i was alone in the CR in a difficult situation, it's like being alone with a GP
JR - my Q, y'day you said 'indifferent' to you, but displayed some sympathy to you actually
SP - she said that
JR - and then the note says 'she cut me off' , that's a rather aggressive thing to do
SP - normally yes but it wasn't a normal situation.
JR - after you cut DU off, you made the woman's prison comment,
SP - yes

....

JR - reading from note 'I don't think is the right time or place, raise it through the appropriate channels', it went back and forth
SP - It's not correct, I wanted the convo to stop
JR - the person who most wanted that convo to stop was DU, you started the convo
SP - i wanted DU to realise that it was unacceptable to be in the CR,
JR - you dont' accept that DU repeatedly said 'I don't want to have
this convo'
SP yes
JR if that was the case, that could be intimidating
SP, yes it could
JR as with the other 2 incidents, DU did not touch you
SP - yes
JR - you spoke to DU in that way because you have very strong views on transpeople
SP - I don't have strong views on transpeople, I had a view on male people in the CR
JR - now on to interview of ED in IX, 'SP has very strong opinions and is vocal about them, including her admiration for Donald Trump'
SP - that's correct
JR - you do have strong opinions and
need to take care when expressing them
SP - I do not try to upset other people
JR - imposing your onions is a form of bullying isn't it
SP - I don't impose my opinions on other people
JR - you did impose your opinion on DU by saying that he's a man
SP - that's correct

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 19/07/2025 16:21

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:49

From Peggie's own testimony:

JR Are you aware of grievances or violence against DU?
SP No and no
JR Nor of sexual harassment?
SP No
....
JR U have negative feelings towards her dont you?
SP No
SP I only have a problem w the CR
JR No record of DU's bad behaviour?
SP No
JR Beth said no issues re DU's interactions w patients. Unremitting praise from ED?
SP Yes, she has a rep as being caring?
JR a good dr?
SP yes, so I've heard
JR Nothing to say uncaring?
SP No
...
No evidence that DU is anything but a lovely person and a lovely Dr.

Lovely male doctors don’t go into changing rooms for women and make up lies.

HatThatWearsYou · 19/07/2025 16:22

spannasaurus · 19/07/2025 16:05

"A transgender doctor has been accused of trying to destroy the 30-year career of a nurse who objected after they shared a female changing room.
Dr Beth Upton “told a pack of lies” to punish Sandie Peggie after the nurse complained about her colleague using the same facilities as her, a tribunal in Dundee was told.
Upton raised formal concerns about patient safety eight months after an incident involving Peggie but denied trying to get her struck off."

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.02.12-195610/www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=cb040a48eb933eca4ab109d11a1c2736" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2025.02.12-195610/www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=cb040a48eb933eca4ab109d11a1c273

Edited

The link didn't work for me unfortunately:
Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘tried to ruin career’ of changing room row nurse

Archive version:
Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘tried to ruin career’ of changing room row nurse

Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘tried to ruin career’ of changing room row nurse

Lawyer for NHS nurse Sandie Peggie claims doctor wanted to punish her

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/trans-doctor-nhs-fife-sandie-peggie-beth-upton-new-v2tzbbwfn?msockid=0f38b1e1e0d36fb22d23a477e1336ec5

WaitedBlankey · 19/07/2025 16:24

@FlirtsWithRhinos , that was beautifully put.

@Tandora - that's the thing about feminism; it means fighting for the rights of women, even those we don't agree with. Because she's a woman, not because she holds any political views or none.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/07/2025 16:25

Tandora · 19/07/2025 15:20

Even if I did accept your terms - that there is a such a thing called 'gender', which is separable from such a thing called 'sex' - I don't accept these terms (I was trying to explain why in my previous post). But for the sake of argument and simplicity of illustration - say I did.

My position would be that there needs to be a balance. We cannot have a situation where one obliterates the other.

So to hold position A) that -

A) in all situations where men and women are treated differently in society we must enforce this always and everywhere by birth sex - that would be a situation where sex obliterates gender.

Equally to hold a position B) that
B) in all situations where men and women are treated differently in society, we can never arrange this by birth sex - that would be gender obliterating sex.

Both are unreasonable and intolerable positions to hold. I believe that the SC court judgement meant to clarify that B) is NOT the status quo. Thus far, and to that extent I agree with it.

But people are now insisting it must imply A) and that is unacceptable. And also impractical/ unenforceable.

To me this makes no sense.

On the one hand, you accept that sex and gender are different, because you accept that trans people exist.

On other hand you believe there is a connection between sex and gender such that sometimes we can segregate by sex and sometimes by gender as if the two were somehow linked and obvious.

But on the third hand (I'm breaking the manual binary today!) you won't explain what the link between sex and gender actually is to explain why "female people who have not declared themselves a Man" and "male people who have declared themselves "Women" are a natural grouping outside the head of those particular men, even though since many people do not experience this "gender" or do not fall into a Gender (not sex) binary, you are basically saying "if you have this sex and have not declared otherwise then you must be this gender and must be happy to share with the opposite sex on that basis, there is no other choice for you".

But I genuinely do not understand what "woman" in this sense of Gender rather than Sex even is.

I understand in practical terms it means "hey ladies this guy thinks he is a lady too so bunk up, be kind and let him in", so I could comply in practice with your brave new world, but it wouldn't mean anything to me. I'd simply expereince it as being told what to do and how to act for the benefit of trans women.

In fact if I'm 100% honest (and sorry, because you won't like this, but this is how i and I suspect a lot of women really feel), it very much feels like all this really boils down to is "look, we know it doesn’t make sense, and we know it's pretty sexist to say 'women act like X or dress like Y or have friendships like z' so we can't really say it, but let's face it we all know what those stereotypes are really so if you could just keep on doing them to give the men the Woman Experience they aspire to we'd all really appreciate that thank you. After all, you don't want to be mean do you?"

So the idea that this "sometimes it's sex, sometimes it's Gender" is a reasonable and fair compromise is just not true. It assumes we all understand and align to a Gender that can map onto one sex or the other as either Cis or Trans and that we all know where we would fit really even if we pretend we don't. But that is just not true.

To me, a Gender Critical Feminist, I only "know" what my gender is in the sense of knowing what sexist constructs apply to my sex. It's not real to me, so forcing me to aquiese to it anyway just feels like a sexist power play.

"Sometimes it's sex, sometimes it's Gender, but either way you know which one you fit in" is as daft to me as "sometimes we'll spit by sex, and sometimes by colour of teapot, but if you don't know your teapot just go with the usual teapot for your sex"

The sort of thing that sex matters to and the sort of thing that teapots colour matters to are to me so totally unrelated that I can't even conceive what you would be getting at and in which situations one or the other matters, plus I have 3 teapots of different colours and I also know people who have none.

HatThatWearsYou · 19/07/2025 16:30

Even if Sandie Peggie was a Trump supporter (which I don't believe she is ETA: and it wouldn't matter even if she was), Tandora clearly thinks that is far worse than Dr Upton admitting in court that he would ignore the explicit consent of his female patients who had requested same sex intimate care.

He also said that if a patient had explicitly requested same sex care and he turned up, that if the patient objected (i.e advocated for herself, which not all female patients are able to do) he would view that as transphobic and aggressive. He could easily block that patient from healthcare using her "aggressive" behaviour as a reason.

So he's signalled to women across the country that he intends on touching women no matter what they want, and if they manage to speak up for themselves he'll punish them by holding access to health care over their heads.

That's predatory and possibly could end up (or already has?) in serious sexual assault of a patient.

But Tandora would have us believe that Sandie Peggie is worse 🙄

henlake7 · 19/07/2025 16:33

Seems like these days its going to suck if you are a transperson who cant pass....also if you are a masculine woman or feminine man!
I imagine there are lots of passing trans folk out there using changing rooms and bathrooms without anybody the wiser.
Maybe its just time to make facilities unisex or single person use?

As for that medical story, it all sounds abit hinky to me. Like maybe neither one of them liked the other.
Although I will say the Dr must be straight up lying about the resus situation as there are multiple people at a cardiac arrest, any one of whom would of been able to back her story up (TBH Im more shocked that they had a changing room, we have to change in the toilets!).😅

Waitwhat23 · 19/07/2025 16:39

'Oh look is that a hang glider?!' has really given me a chuckle!

Annoyedone · 19/07/2025 16:41

Tandora · 19/07/2025 10:18

I understand perfectly your logic - If you are allowing “passing” trans women into spaces, you are not providing separate services.

but I entirely disagree that it has been tested in law. It's an assumption you are making that is not justified.

I think there is a very reasonable / plausible argument that you are indeed providing separate services, in the very sense in which they were intended - to enable effective service delivery by delivering separate services for men and women, based on the logics I clearly set out . This is entirely compatible with the intentions of the act, the wording of the SC judgement, and relies upon reasoning/ provisions specifically provided for elsewhere which acknowledge the impact of gender transition on perceived sex and the ramifications that has for applying protections/ exemptions based on the protected characteristic of birth sex.

So what criteria define passing?

Annoyedone · 19/07/2025 16:41

Tandora · 19/07/2025 14:29

I did have a bit of a laugh as Tandora wrote out the beliefs of gender critical feminism as an argument against gender critical feminism.

Ah ok well if we are back to that I am out.

What a waste of time.

Edited

Byeeeeeeeeeee 😀

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