Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thread 2: Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

497 replies

Underbudget · 13/07/2025 09:31

Darn it the thread filled and I wanted to ask @tandora a question. Is this within site rules to start another to do this as I don't seem to be able to tag her? Feel free to report/delete if it is.

Previous thread here: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5372111-why-cant-people-respect-the-rules-around-toilets?page=1

'Tandora · Today 07:51

Eh? Mental health is everyone’s concern that’s why we have a health system.

No one’s rights come “first”- we need to find solutions that respect everyone’s rights.

There is no “female suffering” involved in respecting and including trans people. It will have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever.'

I wondered @Tandora if you'd read my post earlier on that thread, where in my head, children's rights come first? As the basic premise of child protection?

My post (in response to a different poster) if you missed it, was this:

Underbudget · Today 00:51

Slow to reply and expect thread has moved on, but surely you can empathise with a girl victim of csa feeling terrifed at finding themselves alone with a very male bodied person in a public loo between them and the door? Why does that child's feelings mean less than the adult males?
And what if that particular male bodied person WAS a rapist? That people saw entering from the outside but didn't want to "offend" by challenging them. And a child was born from a child as a result?
Doesn't a child's right to safety and protection come before ANY adult's feelings? Especially when a child can be born from rape as a result? As could ONLY happen to a female?
Fellow survivor of CSA here so I can understand you may have issues in thinking around this. I have spent years in therapy due to being overtrusting because my boundaries were fucked.'

I genuinely want to be in a place where all rights are respected, but I can't personally process this risk in any way that makes sense to me. I simply cannot agree with or process that allowing a male bodied person, unsupervised access to a child victim of CSA in a vulnerable space, whether a real or a perceived risk, does not harm that child. As a male, they are not being discriminated against on the basis of their sex, as ALL males are excluded from that situation, rightfully so. No right minded person believes all males are rapists, just as and no right minded person believes all transwomen are. But some of both ARE and that's a fact. I accept that a trans person may feel excluded from having their social transition recognised by not being allowed in the single sex spaces of the gender of their choosing, but equally, a girl in that situation also feels distressed. Why does that adults discomfort trump the discomfort felt by the child? A trans person deserves somewhere safe to go to the loo, but that's not in the women's loos. If that protects just one single child from reliving horrific trauma or worse, then that's what has to happen.

I would truly like to understand your view, ideally in a way that acknowledges the trauma of a child in this situation.

Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!? | Mumsnet

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one f...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5372111-why-cant-people-respect-the-rules-around-toilets?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:14

WaitedBlankey · 18/07/2025 18:04

Yes, that was egregious by the BBC. I hope they receive a lot of complaints.

The poor woman has had totally fabricated professional misconduct allegations from Dr Upton, told not to speak to anyone (while his version of events is emailed around all the doctors) and put on special leave while he gets “poor thing” messages from senior doctors.

She’s survived sexual abuse from a doctor in her past and wanted to get changed at work away from men and HE is the one supposedly crying and intimidated? She’s 5’3”, he’s 6’2” for Christ’s sake.

I think it's awful behaviour to confront a trans woman and tell them to get out of the changing rooms she's been permitted to use.
If Sandi Peggie was so intimidated by him why did she chose to confront him when they were alone in the changing rooms ? Apparently this wasn't the first time either.

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:15

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:14

I think it's awful behaviour to confront a trans woman and tell them to get out of the changing rooms she's been permitted to use.
If Sandi Peggie was so intimidated by him why did she chose to confront him when they were alone in the changing rooms ? Apparently this wasn't the first time either.

She coudnt leave has she was suffering a menstrual flood and was soaked in blood

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:15

WaitedBlankey · 18/07/2025 18:13

On Twitter you can read Tribunal Tweets who transcribe what is said by all parties, if you would like to hear everything and make up your own mind.

yes I know but that's difficult to follow unless you are dedicating all your time to it.

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:16

It seems like the BBC are doing an OKish job being factual.

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:19

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:15

She coudnt leave has she was suffering a menstrual flood and was soaked in blood

Has that been confirmed? Can you source the claim that she was 'soaked in blood' at the time of the confrontation? Why didn't she go into a toilet cubicle?

zerofeeling · 18/07/2025 18:19

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:14

I think it's awful behaviour to confront a trans woman and tell them to get out of the changing rooms she's been permitted to use.
If Sandi Peggie was so intimidated by him why did she chose to confront him when they were alone in the changing rooms ? Apparently this wasn't the first time either.

This person shouldn't have been permitted to use the female nurses changing rooms. And why would she conftont him elsewhere? It was the presence of a male in a female space that was the problem.

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:21

zerofeeling · 18/07/2025 18:19

This person shouldn't have been permitted to use the female nurses changing rooms. And why would she conftont him elsewhere? It was the presence of a male in a female space that was the problem.

Disagree on all counts. Hoping the tribunal will too.

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:23

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:19

Has that been confirmed? Can you source the claim that she was 'soaked in blood' at the time of the confrontation? Why didn't she go into a toilet cubicle?

You can read the transcript on tribunal tweets substance and see for yourself. Thus was the first sitting in feb

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:23

zerofeeling · 18/07/2025 18:19

This person shouldn't have been permitted to use the female nurses changing rooms. And why would she conftont him elsewhere? It was the presence of a male in a female space that was the problem.

Why would she confront him elsewhere? Because she's claiming to have felt intimidated, which doesn't track with her actions.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/07/2025 18:25

A great summary on today’s proceedings.

From Boswelltoday on X
Day 3 | PM Session | Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton
🧊 “She Had Alternatives”: NHS Fife Weaponised Policy Against a Woman Who Spoke the Truth

By the end of Day 3’s afternoon session, the shape of NHS Fife’s disciplinary logic stood exposed: a woman nurse raised a sex-based concern, a man said he felt uncomfortable—and only one of them was removed from the workplace. That woman was Sandy Peggie. The man was Dr Upton. And the witness who laid bare the institutional machinery behind this decision was her line manager, Louise Curran.

Under cross-examination by Naomi Cunningham KC, Curran confirmed what no policy document had dared say aloud: NHS Fife’s interpretation of “inclusivity” now demanded that gender-critical belief be treated as misconduct.

Curran had not witnessed the disputed incident in the female changing room. She did not recall being told of any raised voice or threat. She relied solely on an account relayed to her by a doctor—that Dr Upton had been left “upset” and “scared” after being told by Peggie she shouldn’t be there. That was enough.

Curran and senior manager Jamie Doyle reviewed workplace policies—not patient safety reports, not grievance procedures. They turned to the bullying and harassment guidance and the NMC code of conduct. Within 24 hours, Peggie was on “special leave.” No formal complaint had been submitted. No version of events had been requested from Peggie herself. No statement had been taken from Upton.
When Cunningham pointed out that this amounted to disciplinary action based on a male colleague’s feelings, Curran responded flatly: “She had alternatives.” Peggie, who had used the main female changing room for decades, could go to the basement. Or the toilets. The male colleague, Upton, had the “right to be there.” The woman was expected to move.

Curran admitted this. She confirmed that Peggie had not refused to work with Upton. That she hadn’t made an official protest. That she had not breached any written protocol. Her only act was to state her belief—a belief grounded in biology and protected in law—that Upton, a male, should not be changing in a space designated for women.

That belief, said Curran, breached the NMC code.
Emails revealed how quickly NHS Fife’s institutional support closed around Upton. Senior clinicians and nursing staff were copied into correspondence affirming his right to use the changing room. Louise Curran was among the recipients. At no stage was Peggie’s side of the story shared with the same reach. She was not defended. She was not asked to clarify. She was simply removed.
Cunningham probed this imbalance: “So the decision to place her on leave was because of her gender-critical belief?” Curran hesitated. Then agreed. Yes, it was her belief—and the way it had made Upton feel.
That was the standard now.

Curran conceded that Upton did not wear a badge or tell colleagues he was trans. Nurses were expected to intuit this—and remain silent. She also acknowledged that staff who had suffered male violence in the past might be especially attuned to the presence of a man. Still, any expression of discomfort would be treated as harassment if the man in question identified otherwise.

This was not about policy. It was about obedience.
Peggie did not conform. She spoke. For that, she was suspended, accused, and quietly isolated while a male colleague—backed by HR, EDI advisers, and senior clinical staff—was shielded from scrutiny. The woman was the problem. Her rights, beliefs, and dignity were optional.

The tribunal continues. But after Louise Curran’s testimony, NHS Fife’s priorities are no longer in doubt: protect the narrative, suppress dissent, and punish women who see what they’re not supposed to say.

zerofeeling · 18/07/2025 18:25

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:21

Disagree on all counts. Hoping the tribunal will too.

You don't seem to want to understand - it's not a question of whether you agree with the SC ruling, it exists. And SO has already been cleared of misconduct.

zerofeeling · 18/07/2025 18:27

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:23

Why would she confront him elsewhere? Because she's claiming to have felt intimidated, which doesn't track with her actions.

She felt intimidated by his presence in the female nurses changing rooms where she challenged him.

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:27

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:19

Has that been confirmed? Can you source the claim that she was 'soaked in blood' at the time of the confrontation? Why didn't she go into a toilet cubicle?

You ask why a blood soaked nurse in a female changing space didn't go to the cubicle. Doess it even cross your mind that she was embarrassed and humiliated and didn't want to stand and walk across the room in blood soaked garments.

Upton could have left instead he stayed to argue with her.

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:34

I've just read the transcript. She says she 'there was a possibility that she needed fresh clothes' , (so 'blood soaked is hardly accurate) and she was 'hoping to get to the toilet'. She said that DU was coming out of the toilet when she arrived.

Instead of going into the toilet to change herself, however, (as presumably a bleeding woman who was worried about soaking her clothes and others seeing this, would do), she decided to remain in the changer, alone with Dr Upton, and personally directly confront him about the fact that he was there, telling him it was unacceptable for him to be there and bringing up a trans female rapist in prison.

https://archive.is/xkSxy

And this is her own account. Not even the cross examination

WaitedBlankey · 18/07/2025 18:37

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:14

I think it's awful behaviour to confront a trans woman and tell them to get out of the changing rooms she's been permitted to use.
If Sandi Peggie was so intimidated by him why did she chose to confront him when they were alone in the changing rooms ? Apparently this wasn't the first time either.

She said he was male and shouldn’t be in the female changing room. Which was true. And has been confirmed by the SC ruling.

He is younger, stronger and vastly larger. She’s a petite woman in middle age who was experiencing flooding. There’s only one “intimidating” person, and it’s not Ms Peggie.

She was extremely brave to tell him he shouldn’t be there and was making her uncomfortable. If Upton had a shred of decency he’d have left to let her sort herself out.

It is not awful behaviour to tell someone trampling over your boundaries that they need to stop. It’s self care.

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:39

Previously Sandie had left the changing room when Upton entered and on another occasion waited outside until hel left.

He complained that both these actions were transphobic.

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:40

He had been given permission to use the toilets by the employer and she knew that.

She also stated her intention to confront him at their next encounter before she did it.

The SC judgement does not mandate that providers must exclude trans women from women's spaces, just that they are able to do so. This employer chose not to.

TheKeatingFive · 18/07/2025 18:41

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:34

I've just read the transcript. She says she 'there was a possibility that she needed fresh clothes' , (so 'blood soaked is hardly accurate) and she was 'hoping to get to the toilet'. She said that DU was coming out of the toilet when she arrived.

Instead of going into the toilet to change herself, however, (as presumably a bleeding woman who was worried about soaking her clothes and others seeing this, would do), she decided to remain in the changer, alone with Dr Upton, and personally directly confront him about the fact that he was there, telling him it was unacceptable for him to be there and bringing up a trans female rapist in prison.

https://archive.is/xkSxy

And this is her own account. Not even the cross examination

Edited

Your misogyny is actually revolting me now

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:42

TheKeatingFive · 18/07/2025 18:41

Your misogyny is actually revolting me now

It's not misogyny to hold a woman accountable for harassing someone.

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:43

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:42

It's not misogyny to hold a woman accountable for harassing someone.

Upton was the only person doing the harassing

TheKeatingFive · 18/07/2025 18:43

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:42

It's not misogyny to hold a woman accountable for harassing someone.

Ugh, it just gets worse 🤢

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:45

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:43

Upton was the only person doing the harassing

She absolutely did not harass anyone. She was confronted for getting changed in the facility where she was permitted to change by her employer.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/07/2025 18:45

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:42

It's not misogyny to hold a woman accountable for harassing someone.

Dr Upton harassed the nurse and the other nurses by being a boundary trampling narcissistic awful man by being there in the first place. You know it. I know it. I just feel sorry for you now.

TheKeatingFive · 18/07/2025 18:46

Tandora · 18/07/2025 18:45

She absolutely did not harass anyone. She was confronted for getting changed in the facility where she was permitted to change by her employer.

He

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 18:47

Upton made career ending false allegations about Sandie endangering patient safety