Am I expecting too much from ND pre-teen?

[HippyKayYay]

Parents of ND pre-teens how do you know where to draw the line between supporting them and pandering to them?

We do a lot to support DD (12, high functioning ASD and ADHD) in the mornings and at bedtime (two toughest times of day for her). But I'm feeling totally burnt out by it and that I will never be able to meet her incredibly high standards and unrealistic expectations about what we can and should be able to do for her. If we try to draw lines (e.g. if you want a lift to school you must be ready to leave at X time, so that we can get on with our day') it leads to huge conflict, accusations of us 'being mean', or 'why can't you just be nice to me?'.

Bedtime is a long, protracted affair that requires me and/or DH to push her through the various stages of her routine (otherwise she gets 'stuck') but being careful not to nag her (because then she explodes). Her bedtime is getting later and later, but she still 'needs' us there at lights out to sit with her. Suggestions that we no longer do so lead to major distress.

I've explained to her umpteen times that we can't give her what we don't have, that we have limited capacity, etc. She gets upset because she says I'm 'making her feel bad'. We go round in circles. Any attempts to draw hard cut-offs at bedtime can lead to massive melt-downs (often lasting until after midnight - we've had 3 in the last week). DH and I are knackered and have no time together at all in the evenings anymore. Added issue is she has a younger brother who gets very stressed out by all of this (expecially when he's woken up by her having a meltdown at 11pm).

So, yeah. TLDR: how do I put some boundaries in place around what support we give DD without making her 'feel bad', that we 'don't love her' and without leaving her really distressed? Because I'm becoming massively resentful about meeting her 'needs' (/demands), which are feeling increasingly unreasonable.

I have an AuDHD daughter who is 14. She is an absolute sweetheart, but she just doesn't seem to see me as a person with needs and wants And sometimes it seems as if she is breathtakingly inconsiderate.

She does demand a lot of me. I often say I feel like I'm working really hard to slightly disappoint her! However, I have found that it actually helps us both having explicit boundaries. So, for me, I tell her I don't parent after 10pm (maybe this is mean, but I get up at 5am and I'm knackered), she is also not allowed to come in to ask me things when I'm in the bath (still working on this one).

Takes a bit of time to implement but then she knows exactly where she is and can work around it. As you have summer holidays coming up, when she will have less demand during the day and the disruption to her brother and her own sleep is less damaging you could try and put a couple of boundaries in place.

Obviously you keep all the loving and nurturing parenting the rest of the time and I wouldn't put a massive change in as it will be too much. Start low and build slow.

The trick is to be more like them I think. So I don't spend ages explaining it or talking about my feelings. I just say "i need my own time and so I'm doing this now" and it becomes a new fact of life. This doesn't work with you trying to get them to do stuff (cos demand) but I find does work if it is something you are putting in place for yourself.

Sorry OP but if you’re referring to your DD as “high functioning” then you actually aren’t clued up on neurodivergence at all 😢

She’s high masking (maybe). But she’s not high functioning. She’s clearly NOT coping.

“High functioning” is used by people to mean that the ND person behaves in a way that doesn’t cause any bother to others. It bears no relation to how the ND person actually manages to get through each day. It’s a very ableist, offensive term. And you’re using it to refer to your daughter. Have a think about what she’s actually experiencing, not what you are experiencing.

Yes you are expecting too much from her. You can get there but you need to work with her, not impose frightening boundaries on her suddenly.

(I’m autistic, I suspect I also have ADHD, and am a parent to 2 ND teens/young adults).

Reading your opening post my daughter is exactly like yours. No advice from me as I certainly havent got it cracked but I've been absorbing the advice from ither posters.
We have done the alarms (stressed her out). Picture chore charts, etc. I've done tripple p course on anxiety, challenging behaviour and teenagers. I've taken part in online courses for understanding autism. She had done numerous course. Goes to the autistic girls network meeting every other week.
Still not found the right routine for her without me inwardly crying daily.
We are ot the waiting list for CAHMS but who knows how much longer it will be.

Yes, ok. Right now I feel like DH and I could divide and conquer better. He is also worn down by it, but at least less explosive than me.

I do have a big project I need to get done in the next few weeks, so could legitimately take myself off earlier in the day and maybe avoid the morning shenanigans for a bit.

sorry, yes I know that. I was just using it here to explain quickly that she wasn't e.g. non-verbal and to give a quick idea of how it impacts her. But absolutely point taken about the non-ND-affirming language in my original post

And fair enough if we're expecting too much from her. But what happens when we just can't meet her endless demands and wants (which is where we're at now)? DH and I have reached our limit and many of her requests simply ARE unreasonable (even if she can't see them as such and even if they are things she would very much like).

she will accuse me or ignoring her or abandoning her

Serious question - are you confident that this is just her perception? That you are engaged, and that you support her and that you listen to her and take her needs and preferences and wants into account?

Because if so, it doesn't matter what she accuses you of. DS accuses me of all sorts of things. And in the beginning, walking away felt impossible. And then I did it. And the next day, he was fine and we carried on as normal. And then I did it again. And believe it or not, the same happened - we just picked up as normal later.

There have been times where whatever the issue is does need to be addressed again at a later stage when we are both calm. But I'm learning more and more how to separate the real issues from the ones that are just his emotional disregulation talking.

Here's a very minor, but very amusing example: Last week, DS was in an absolute state because I asked him if he wanted to come swimming. He was incandescent with rage becuase he had been thinking about meeting some friends at the pool and how dare I even consider going swimming. The weird bit was not even that he was upset that now his plan would be ruuined (in his perception), no, he was absolutely furious that I'd even thought of it. Like I should have magically known that he might want to go to the pool AND that should have made me decide not to go to the pool. I was accused of "ruining everything" and "being selfish" and "not understanding". there was more "you always do this" and "you just wnt to monitor everything I'm doing." etc etc.

I told him he was being ridiculous and continued to get ready for the pool, occassionally reiterating he was welcome to come along.

He did not come with us.

But what WAS funny is that he did turn up later. Obviously, we all pretended not to see each other, but he did turn up. And his fun was NOT ruined. And then when we all got home later, I made a nice dinner.

The end of chapter 5403928 in the "Craziness of an adolescent, hormonal, ADHD child"

Sorry to hear how tough it is for you. It is just fucking hard. And a lot.

Serious question - are you confident that this is just her perception? That you are engaged, and that you support her and that you listen to her and take her needs and preferences and wants into account?

@MageQueen I mean, yes and no. I can't take all her preferences into account. If I did that I would spend literally all day running around doing stuff for her/ making social arrangements (and then unmaking them) and I'd be broke (lots of requests for new clothes, new stuff for room, etc). She would prefer to stay in bed reading until 11 each morning. She would prefer that I always made her breakfast and lunch and that I always put her stuff in the dishwasher. I don't feel bad about not accommodating these preferences all the time.

I do feel like we're engaged. I do feel like we're supportive. I do feel we take her needs into account. But maybe we're not doing it in the right way? Or something... She info-dumps on me or DH as soon as she sees us after we've been apart (e.g. at school). This will include often a litany of complains about what other people have and haven't done. It's hard to be a sponge with infinite capacity for this and I'll admit that after years and years of this sometimes I tune out. Especially if she's telling me something she told me already. It can be quite overwhelming at times.

I think you may need to look backwards - you said in one of your posts that your DD is calmer / finds bedtime easier during the school holidays. So maybe school just is too much for her right now? Maybe you need to take her out of school for a while, to allow her to rest and reset. Her brain must be in turmoil with AuDHD and hormones. Sorry if I’ve missed her age in your posts but I’m assuming 11 or 12? That’s a horrendous age for autistic / ADHD girls, as both conditions are hugely impacted by oestrogen. Loads of ND girls manage to cope at primary school but then fall apart at secondary, once puberty has played its horrible part….

As a family you all need a break. Education can be handled in many different ways once DD is calmer. But right now it sounds as though life might be improved for all of you if DD had a break. Then once she’s fully reset, you can look at next steps.

I work in a school and I’ve seen this scenario so many times - inevitably it’s school that’s the problem. She will still be able to study and work in future, but she needs a break right now. As do you

This is a very very interesting response. Part of the reason for my "childrens are narcissists, especially ND children" theory, is this exact dynamic - where, by any objective standard, you are literally being AMAZING, but you question everything because of the (unreasonable) expectations of the child/narcissist.

So let me translate your post for you with the benefit of no emotions towards this situation:

"I can't take all her preferences into account" - this suggests that you thin you are failing. You are attempting to defend and explain why you can't do this - because it's never ending. But for most parents and adults, taking someone's preferences into account does not mean accomodating every one in every way. It's the difference between ensuring sufficient vegetarian options and feeling forced to offer entirely vegetarian menu becuase Great Aunty Mary doesn't like to be around meat eating. taking preferences into account is not about buying all the clothes and make up she wants, it's agreeing that within your budget she can shop at her preferred place and not be forced to wear Boden.

She would prefer to stay in bed reading until 11 each morning. She would prefer that I always made her breakfast and lunch and that I always put her stuff in the dishwasher. I don't feel bad about not accommodating these preferences all the time. - Excellent. Becuase that's just parenting!

I do feel like we're engaged. I do feel like we're supportive. I do feel we take her needs into account. But maybe we're not doing it in the right way? - remeber, for her at this point in her life and development, the only "right way" is HER way. That's not her fault. But it's not yours either and you shouldn't take responsibility for it.

She info-dumps on me or DH as soon as she sees us after we've been apart (e.g. at school). This will include often a litany of complains about what other people have and haven't done. It's hard to be a sponge with infinite capacity for this and I'll admit that after years and years of this sometimes I tune out. Especially if she's telling me something she told me already. It can be quite overwhelming at times. You sound like you feel guilty becuase you're not letting her go on and on and on about something? But honestly, why? She's 12. It's perfectly right for her to share her worries with you. But she doesn't get to just go round and round endlessly on the same issue, especialyl if she's not listening to advice or interested in changing things (which, if she's like my children, I'm guessing is the case). You are NOT a bad parent nor are you not accomodating her if you draw a line after a certain amount of time.

INcidentally, the "spiral of doom" as I call it (x10 late at night) is an issue I've had to have firm words with SIl about. She'd let him spiral when he was spending time with her, then SHE would spiral and start sending me 100000 messages about how worried about him she was.

There's a huge difference between listening to and respecting their worries and concerns, and accomodating this sort of spiral. It's no different to the toddler who is upset becuase you cut th ebanana. They're upset. So what do you do? You commiserate for a bit. You say sorry. You suggest that they try a different banana. Then you start to realise they're just being annoying. So perhaps you aim for distraction and humour. Hopeflly that works. if it doesn't work, you take the banana away and let them whinge for a bit until they get distracted or bored. If the issue is real, next time, when you don't cut the banana, they'll happily eat the whole banana. If the issue isn't real, they'll just eat the cut up banana again.

INcidentally, the "spiral of doom" as I call it (x10 late at night) is an issue I've had to have firm words with SIl about. She'd let him spiral when he was spending time with her, then SHE would spiral and start sending me 100000 messages about how worried about him she was.

Oh god, in light of the fat that I'm fairly certain every member of DH's family has ADHD, albeit undiagnosed, I just realised that increasingly, I also take this approach with SIL. She was spiralling just this week on something and I 100% took the banana/toddler approach with her. haha.

I also 100% agree with @MrsEmmelinePankhurst that she's likely at her worst right now from a year of hectic school and that any chanes you want to implement, probalby will work best once you'ave had a break from the school routine.

@MageQueen can you be my parenting coach please? Thanks for all your responses.

The self-doubt thing is so real. I'm constantly asking 'am I mean?' 'am I being unkind'? (Just because I asked her to get into bed) 'Is it me being unreasonable here?' And then we get into the cycle of me trying to accommodate and it never being enough and I then get burnt out and fucked off and lose my shit.

Definitely boundaries. Ignore the 'you're mean to me'. It should not be 'heartbreaking', and she isn't 'sobbing', she is 'ranting'. You know you're not mean or unkind. This is toddler behaviour. Mean because you are insisting that everyone gets some rest and gets out the house on time? Try again love!
Your poor DS. Not your fault but he must be so fed up.

Christ I feel like I could have written this!! It’s actually uncanny.

It often is sobbing actually. I can tell the difference. There is genuine distress. So it really is hard to walk away from.

But yes, poor DS. He has his own issues, but so many of them are caused or exaccerbated by her behaviour and/or my inability to cope with it.

well maybe, but you need to teach her that being asked to go to bed is not something to be 'distressed' about. If she was feeling unwell, in pain, or genuinely upset about something serious, then of course you offer comfort, but 11 pm is not the time for her to start kicking off and keeping the whole household awake. It's not fair on anyone, herself included. She has school the next day, as does her brother and you have work.

I don't think i'm qualified to be anyone's parnting coach! . But I'm a bit further down the line than you and i recognise so much of what you're going through. I'm not out the other side, but I do see these little pockets of light.

The distress IS real. That was what made it so hard. when he is screaming at me about how awful I am, IN THAT MOMENT, he truly means it. It's horrible.

BUT, I can't change his mind when he's in that state, so the best thing I can do is minimise my exposure and reduce the opportunities for him to say these things.

I've mentioned that I think DH's entire family have ADHD. One of the things I've found very difficlt to manage with him and the rest of them is their emotional disregulation. And the way that when they're upset, they will say and do things that are completely unacceptable and think it's fine. I have been determined to help DS NOT to stay in this cycle as he grows up. It has destroyed relationships and caused a lot of angst for all of them and I don't want that for him.

Last week, he got into trouble at school. Then he made it worse by basically behaving like a knob. When he rang me, he started with "Mum, I KNOW I shoudn't have said and done those things but I just couldn't help it right then. Sir kept on my case and Daniel wouldn't stop and I just needed a moment and I couldn't get it."

That felt like HUGE progress to me. And he took his punishment subsequently. He's learning what his triggers are and he's leearning to take responsibility. We have a long long way to go, but I feel like we're on the right path. Finally.

You’ve had some really good advice already OP, there isn’t much I’d add but what I will say is that being low demand, being flexible, bending over backwards to accommodate every little thing to avoid conflict is not something that can be done permanently, full time, forever, unless you are Mary Poppins. Even if it was possible it isn’t teaching or preparing DD for the world, it’s not good for you, your husband or your other child.

You have to decide what your/the household boundaries are, obviously taking into account her needs, routine etc, and once you’ve decided that- stick to it. No sudden changes, no negotiating, just “this is what’s happening”, when the verbal abuse starts you are allowed to walk away. As @MageQueen says being a good parent does not mean being your child’s physical, emotionally or verbal punching bag with no consequences- that doesn’t raise good, healthy and well rounded adults.

The bottom like is that you are not perfect, nobody is, but the more run down you get, the more burnt out you get, the worse everything becomes. Something has to give and that thing really truly cannot be your mental health, for the sake of not just yourself but both of your children.

@MageQueen well you sound like you're doing a brilliant job and that you're finding a way through for you and your DS. It gives me hope

@Mrsttcno1 been there done that with the MH stuff, unfortunately. It's what makes it all harder, trying to manage her while also trying not to return to the very bad place I was in a few years ago. Not helped when a lot of her stuff triggers my stuff (not her fault, of course).

Sorry, I know I'm back again but I just want to add to what @Mrsttcno1 is saying. I believe that PIL were truly awful parents. Not because they are awful people - they aren't, they are wonderful people. But becuase, for lots of reasons (including their own likely ND) they didn't know how to manage their DC and they had very little emotional regulation themselves.

On the other hand, while I think I probably ALSO have some ADHD traits (and I do have family members diagnosed so there's no reason to believe it isn't genetically in our family too), my parents were (I now realise) very very good at the right boundaries, and that level of consistency. So yes, I thought they were unfair. I still think they made some mistakes. BUT, I can look back and see the benefits of their approach and, where they DID make mistakes, I can see those were for the right reasons. This has also reassured me when I'm having to leave DS to believe I'm being super super mean - I remember that those feelings didn't come with me into adulthood but I remember feelng them in the moment as a child and teenager.

MIL, on the other hand, spent DH's childhood veering from tiptoeing around him and his sister and giving them whatever they wanted, to borderline emotional abuse when she lost her rag. It has had significant and long-lasting impacts on them as adults.

A smart speaker in her room with timer countdowns, ie at 8.30 it beeps and says "put on your shoes". It's easier coming from an inflexible machine rather than you, who she can dispute the time with

Hello @HippyKayYay I have a autistic daughter and we used to have HUGE issues at bed time (still have minor ones) but it does improve.

We still have the 'i can't do x earlier as x belongs in this time' but one thing that helps is telling her we need to do x now, not in 5 or 10 minutes.

For example to leave the house we used to say "we need to leave in ten minutes" thinking she knew she had to clean her teeth and get her bag and do her hair to leave in ten minutes... nope, because in her mind leaving in ten minutes means she has ten minutes to continue doing her stuff.

So we talked to her and now we say "we have to leave now" and that means she goes and does all that she needs to do to leave and it works...

Alarms also work - in the morning we have one for breakfast and one for finishing breakfast -but those are also for me (diagnosed ADHD)

In the evening there are a lot of little parts to it, but we manage to follow them in order and I still sit in the room 5/10 minutes but we got to a point where i can hug her and leave while she is still awake... i know her knowing i am there for her if it's really important is what gave her the confidence of not needing me there to sleep.

I sleep late (thanks peri and adhd) so she can sometimes get up, come to me for a hug while I am faffing on the phone and go back to bed... and even if i have gone to bed if I am not yet asleep i get up to give her a hug (she won't wake me if i am snoring :-D )

She does know the boundaries - for example if i am ill i change things, and distubing the sibling is a no-no, and so on - and things are getting better

MIL, on the other hand, spent DH's childhood veering from tiptoeing around him and his sister and giving them whatever they wanted, to borderline emotional abuse when she lost her rag. It has had significant and long-lasting impacts on them as adults.

I dont' think I'm that bad @MageQueen, but this is my big big fear.

God I could have written your post ! My daughter is 9 (ADHD) and we have the same ridiculous bedtime shenanigans, she won’t settle until 10.30 and I have to be there.
Endless promoting and cajoling.

If I finally get her into the bathroom to do her teeth there’s still a 50% chance she’ll start making potions out of shampoo instead etc.

We have had periods where she requires a lot less input and there’s fewer meltdowns, though.

These periods aren’t influenced by any successful approach from us but by her being more regulated. Whether that’s because she’s not having a hormone surge, or Xmas is finally over (December is hell for us) or things are better at school etc.

Just sending solidarity really, and agree with PP that earlier melatonin might help. My daughter seems a bit calmer when having this earlier even if sleep is still a few hours off.

and yes to dividing and conquering so one of you has an evening off - though hard to escape in the same bloody house