If everyone was just honest half of the threads on Mumsnet wouldn't be here...

[GraceUnderPresure]

There's white lies and there's deception.
White lies like 'your hair looks fine' just to be kind are debatable but usually meant with no bad intent.
However, if people just told the truth there wouldn't be all the 'is he lying to me' paranoia (not judging, I've been there, and he was - all history now, I won't tolerate liars!)
But what gets me is the number of posters who encourage the OP to fabricate wild stories to get what they want, downright sneaky in some cases!
If everyone was honest and communicated expectations clearly the world would be a much happier place IMO

If everyone was honest and communicated expectations clearly the world would be a much happier place IMO

That's not how honestly works.

Honestly.

In my experience, most people on MN aggressively advocate for OPs to be bluntly honest even in social situations where a little bit of diplomacy would go a long way towards solving a problem.
Having said that, it does really get me the amount of people who encourage OPs to stretch the truth to breaking point on "I had a cold when I was 12, can I get PIP" type threads. Because "If you weren't entitled to it they wouldn't give it to you".

Oh lord no

Small lies make the world go round imo

If we all answered questions honestly, society would grind to a halt in no time

How does it work then?

The thing is, people say this and it sounds great. But absolutely no one really wants to live in a world where people are totally, brutally honest all the time - and you can tell because no one likes being on the receiving end of it, even people who say they would. It's like people who go on about how much better 'asking' culture is than 'guessing' - but there are no societies, and no one wants, a world where you just go up to people and say things like 'can I have your house?' or 'I quite fancy your boyfriend, could you dump him so I can try?' - so all cultures really involve guessing what an ok request is, they just have different lines on 'ok'. Similarly no culture sees as a positive people giving their pure, unfiltered thoughts in all situations, so of course you need 'lies'.

Honesty is different from truth, though - you can be completely honest and still be wrong. Honesty’s about saying what you believe is true - truth is what’s actually true. It matters - especially when people assume being wrong means you were lying. You’d still have all the problems and conflict.

Being honest isn't saying everything you're thinking though, it's just being truthful with what you do say.
You can still keep thoughts to yourself.

I prefer honesty.

I can't think of any occasions when someone has been honest with me that I haven't appreciated even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear at the time.

That's not the same as people being cruel though or unkind in their opinions or just an arsehole because, when people do that, they're not really being honest in their motivations

I'd appreciate honesty over a 'white lie' any day. Eg if someone asks how they look, presumably, it's because they want to know. The truth can be delivered kindly. It doesn't have to be a lie. What's the point of communicating if people are just going to lie to each other? It's pointless.

If I ask a question, it's because I want a truthful response. If I've asked you, it's because I value your opinion.

If someone asks you a direct question, I think they deserve an honest response.

Being truthful or silent is rarely the best approach though. A social veneer keeps things running smoothly and often we need to ask for help in how to do this because most people would prefer to tell the truth if they could. I'd love to be honest when asked to do some horrible task at work or ignore the request but of course I say "yes thanks what a great opportunity to present this to the board (because everyone more senior has ducked out of it)" The wild stories suggested are usually to help people say something socially appropriate when the truth is hurtful either to them or yourself from the repercussions. If MIL is painfully annoying, the neighbour is hopelessly boring or the school mum's son is rude says weird things and you don't want him to play with your son again telling them honestly and truthfully is rarely the right approach if you want life to be calm and peaceful. Getting advice on how to politely extricate you from having to interact with them too often is a good idea and humour through wild suggestions can help you to feel less alone and part of a supportive social group despite the social problem you've encountered.

The point of communicating whilst lying is smooth and peaceful social interaction. If I politely and kindly tell my MIL I find her too annoying and would like her to visit us less I will upset my DH and DC not to mention MIL, my life will be less peaceful. Likewise if I say that to the neighbours or horrible little Jimmy's loving mother. I need a polite lie instead to still allow me to avoid situations that are causing me stress. Humans are still very similar to the great apes and are really just a surface veneer of politeness and social conformity away from more aggressive behaviour. If we want to keep the peace we often need to lie.

I find people who pride themselves on ‘saying it like it is’ rarely value it if people do the same to them!

Well, sure. By the same token if everyone was kind and reasonable 80% of the threads on Mumsnet wouldn't be here and the world would be a better place.

It's not going to happen is it?!

As I said, there's a difference between white lies to keep the peace and outright deception.
One is to be kind the other is lying and rarely has a positive outcome.

But everyone has their own 'truth' don't they? Or their own version of it? Even something as simple as 'I really don't think that dress suits you,' if asked for an opinion by a friend; that would be my truth. But to someone else, friend might look an absolute star in the dress. My truth would be coloured by my own subjective views on the style of the dress, the colour of the dress, maybe tinged with a little bit of jealousy about friend's figure that I hadn't acknowledged to myself. Another, more objective, friend might beg to differ.

But where's the line between 'white lies' and dishonest? No-one is advocating scamming people and cheating on here, the threads are generally about socially acceptable lies which is where the wild stories tend to come into it as people suggest funny things. If you mean why don't people who cheat on their partners just be honest well of course it's also because they also want to go about living in a way that brings them enjoyment and keeps the peace and avoids conflict and a risk of aggression in the same way. I don't see how that would reduce the thread numbers.

I know it's a truism but if you don't lie you don't need to have a good memory.

I think I know what you mean. On MN the OP is regularly urged to 'pretend you have a work meeting that evening'; 'say that your roof is leaking so you have to stay in and deal with it'; 'tell her the dog is ill' rather than for example 'Thanks, but I don't want to pay a lot of money for a ticket to a Rolling Stones tribute band because you keep cancelling whenever we plan to go out together'.

Thank you! Finally someone gets what I'm on about!

It was the one where someone had made a mistake on an application form and was encouraged to lie and blame computer error that made me start this thread.
As someone else said, to lie you need a really good memory...

Oh, you ARE my people !

The consequence of made up excuses (aka lies) will be questions such as, ‘How’s the dog ?’, ‘Do work often make you work evenings/Saturdays ?’, ‘Have you had the roof fixed ?’, etc. etc. and if you don’t remember the lies you told you will appear really, really, stupid. Just say ‘Sorry, it doesn’t work for me’, or, ‘I can’t’, and don’t get into any more detail.