To think this is not normal for young child

[Hoverflies]

DD2 turned 3 last month and ever since she was born she has been unbelievably hard work. She cried most of the first year unless she was breastfeeding and she wouldn't look at anyone but me or her dad. I couldn't leave her with anyone for more than an hour without her screaming. We couldn't even put her down to sleep for 18 months, we just held her all evening because every time we put her down she just screamed endlessly. She wouldn't tolerate being put in her car seat and screamed for every car journey for about 18 months or in a pram or even a baby carrier.

She gradually became very sociable and is now an absolute delight around everyone else but at home and with us she is a nightmare. She screams at us constantly and goes into meltdown over tiny things all day. She snatches her older sister's toys and hits her and even bit her cheek the other day. Some days it is just hours of meltdown after meltdown. She still won't sleep without me feeding her and always ends up in bed with us and wakes up really early. DD1 was so so much easier and laid back as a baby and toddler (a different story since youngest came along).

We have just felt like we can't cope properly since she came along. We have some absolutely lovely moments and she can be so funny and she isn't behind on anything and is really chatty but emotionally it's like she can't cope with not getting everything she wants. She goes to MIL for childcare each week and she just gives her whatever she wants (sometimes 3 ice creams a day) and I don't think that helps because she is then at home screaming at us for ice cream or chocolate or opening all the cupboards and throwing things out. MIL doesn't believe us that she is hard work and says she never cries or screams for her whereas my parents do see it because they actually say no to her.

Basically I don't know if it's all just because she's spoilt or if there is more going on. I don't know what to do for the best. I would just think spoilt but we had such a rough time when she was a baby, I don't know anyone who had a more clingy and difficult baby and so I worry there's more to it.

Has anyone else experienced similar and have things resolved or was there anything you did? AIBU to think this is beyond normal for toddler tantrums?

I have twins who are 3 and I’ve noticed a huge change in them, one of them particularly; since turning 3. His emotions are incredibly heightened, very demanding, no patience and tests boundaries a lot! I think it’s becoming aware that they are older and able to express their needs and wanting to work out where they are in the world.
similarly if he’s with his Grandparents or with his Dad (we are separated) he’s a lot less intense. I think that I’m his safe space so he holds on to all of his emotions when he’s not with me and once he’s back… there’s an explosion of emotions. I find he often just wants a hug or some attention. But I do know it’s tough dealing with such extreme emotions. I’m hoping this will be a wave we ride through and reach the peaceful side very soon! Sending you love

Yanbu. We had a high needs child and turns out they are ND. I'd chat to the health visitor and keep it in your mind for the future, preschool, school etc in case you need to pursue an assessment.

I had a high needs baby who at 15 has just received an autism diagnosis.

Have you spoken to.the health visitor about your concerns?
It maybe something or nothing but the health visitor can refer to appropriate agencies if necessary.

I don't want to be that person, but have you considered she may be neurodiverse. The behaviour you describe sounds so much like my middle child who is now on the diagnostic pathway for ASD.

The meltdowns, the inability to cope with things not going the way they expect/want, the need to be held all the time, the sleep issues and sleeping in your bed (i remember it all well)... they could all be signs. Obviously there will be more to it but maybe have a look into things like ASD, sensory issues and pathogical demand avoidance and see if anything there sounds familiar to you.

Have you got a space in your home you can use for a calm/safe space that you can take her to during meltdown? Stay with her so she's not being sent away but just to keep her sibling safe from her lashing out.

In regards to toys, how split up are the toys? Can you reinforce the expectation that her toys come from one place and her sisters toys come from another place and that she doesn't have to share her toys but that does mean she can't take from her sister. Obviously one conversation won't work but gently reinforce it every time and try and calmly remove things.

@x2boys @Wakeywakey678 I did speak to the health visitor at the 2 year check and said that her behaviour and sleep issues and everything seemed really extreme compared to DD1 and all of my friend's children and she said it was because I was still breastfeeding so she was waking in the night (I forgot to say she woke every 10 mins for the first month, every hour for the first year and then every few hours until not long ago) and because we were giving into her and so she was playing up for us. She said I should stop feeding her and stop giving into tantrums basically.

@TheNameIsDickDarlington thank you, yes I have thought she might be. We think DD1 is although we had no major difficulties with her until she was over 3.5. At the moment they share all toys but maybe having their own would help

This was DS1 as a baby/toddler/3 year old. Although mercifully he wasn’t particularly physically violent. But everything else is identical.

Hes autistic with a demand avoidant profile and I think everyone will be shocked if he doesn’t get an ADHD diagnosis next year. He’s also exceptionally clever.

If it’s any consolation, he’s easier now at 5. Still a lot of hard work. A lot more than the average 5 year old. But the screaming refusal of everything is better. I think it’s probably a combination of maturity and us finding what works. Basically minimise transitions, be very gentle around transitions that have to occur, pick your battles but ensure the boundaries you choose to have are held firmly. These kids need to feel in control but also need to know their parents are in charge, albeit in a kind, loving way.

Read ‘the explosive child’ and check out ‘At peace parents’ on social media.

Good luck x

@Hoverflies there's no reason why you can't look into low demand/low arousal parenting of preschoolers and try the ideas for a bit. Even if there is an assessment and diagnosis in the future, it won't tell you about what works to help your DD specifically, you'll need to work that out yourselves. Once you do, life gets a bit easier.

3 is tough age...
Honestly iddo my homework fond someone good and look to get some external help.

Intervention now is important dont let it drag to 6 or 8

My eldest was like this, and had an ASD diagnosis at 16 yrs and ADHD diagnosis at 17 yrs. It was extremely challenging, and she was such hard work.

Have a look at the books about Pathological Demand Avoidance (now called something else which is more appropriate and describes it exactly!)

I did have to hold my boundaries, especially through the teenage years - which we are not out of yet. She does appreciate that I stopped her making some shit decisions.

Also, she is probably okay with MIL due to a combination of masking (a phenomenon by which autistic children, especially autistic girls adopt a different persona in different settings to comply) alongside MIL having no boundaries. In the short run, having 3 ice creams will make your DD feel in control which, fundamentally is what PDA autism craves. But in the long run I doubt the lack of held boundaries is good for her.

My dd and ds were high needs children one has asd the other adhd. My niece is very similar to what you describe but no diagnosis.

you could do the mchatr tool online to see if any nd flags up as she could be masking with others making her worse at home as it’s the only place she can show her emotions.

if you do have concerns you could request a hv visit, go gp or ask senco at nursery to observe her.

theres a number of good books on parenting high needs children. In my experience it’s about managing their environment and keeping their anxiety levels down. So rountine, boundaries helps. Lots of preparations for going new places. Knowing her limits not expecting more than she is capable of. Having a toolbox of soothing things to use when she is getting overwhelmed. Recognising early signs of overwhelm and trying to distract/adapt the situation before it escalates. Have a few things you discipline - biting/hiting etc but don’t discipline everything otherwise you’ll constantly be on at her and that’s not nice for either of you. Work on the smaller stuff from a reward based perspective. So lots of praise/treat if she helps tidy up etc but if she doesn’t let it go for now and work on the more severe stuff.

Try to role model the behaviours you want if you guys are getting frustrated/overwhelmed it’s harder to expect her to regulate.

it is tough you always have to be on it, five steps ahead of your child and sometimes it still goes wrong. You have to develop a thick skin.

My heart really goes out to you, as it sounds like you are having a really tough time.
Would recommend reading Kate Silverstone's No sure thing as naughty book - lots of amazing insights into children and their behaviour. She's also on Instagram.
Also would look into food allergies, cranial oestopath/oestopath and possibly some play/art therapy, as she is clearly struggling.

Maybe a nursery would be better for you all. You can actually tell mil thanks but no thanks.

I understand, one of my children is much more demanding than the other. And turns out she is autistic though not all children like this are of course.

I think you need to find a new childcare solution as if it’s behavioural she’s getting it from her. And you need to separate the toys and create a safe space for each child. If they share a room then maybe a loft bed with individual play spaces underneath each. Or a corner of the dining room or whatever. They can help you split the toys into mine / hers / shared with their own spaces. And make sure they have 1:1 time and time to themselves as often as is practical. I am super aware that my son doesn’t always get lots of attention as my daughter can be a lot so I really work hard at balancing it as much as possible.

Thank you everyone. My 6 yo DD1 is also really difficult for the past couple of years, having loads of meltdowns and school refusal and struggling to sleep at night but she was fine for the first 4 years, hardly any tantrums, slept so well etc. She just struggled with being around other children because of being a toddler in covid lockdowns I think.

But it seems like someone in my house is always having a meltdown and I know better routines would probably help but I have ADHD so while I crave routine I don't seem capable of implementing them plus the house is such a state because I feel overwhelmed all the time and constantly breaking up fights. I completely acknowledge that so many people have a much harder time than I do, and I do have a great partner and local family support but both me and their dad just don't seem to be able to cope with it all.

I will look into all of your suggestions, thank you! Also thinking of trying acupuncture for them both, no idea if it will help but I'm up for trying anything. Maybe will look at cranial osteopath again, I did try that for a bit when DD2 was a baby and she said her neck was stiff and her head had a lot of tension. I'm also trying a load of supplements and dietary changes.

Sorry but your HV is full of crap.

I agree. A lot of them are!

My high needs baby, toddler, pre-schooler turned out to be autistic.