Is teaching at private schools better?

[buffertie]

Many a thread and much in the news about just how awful teaching is. Many teachers are leaving the profession. The main reasons I’m heading and reading about are: poor pay, very long hours, badly behaved children, even worse behaved parents, unrealistic expectations, ofsted, too many kids. Many more I’m sure, I’m not an expert on the subject as you can probably tell.

Anyway, my kids go to private primary school and I often look at the teachers and wonder if they’re ok or if it’s any better at private schools ?

I have nothing but praise and respect for all teachers. I certainly could not do it and I am saddened by the poor conditions and quite frankly very worried what will happen, as so many are leaving the profession and many more are probably put off from even joining.

what’s the situation in private schools, generally speaking ? Is it better or actually worse ? Perhaps more pressure ?

When we were looking at DD’s private school several of the teachers said they love working there because they can actually get on and teach the children rather than be constantly dealing with behaviour incidents.

The class sizes are much smaller - 20 max but 10 for most subjects. They just have more resources (particularly around pastoral care).

But they are a very touchy feely nurturing school that cherry picks the sort of kids they want, focusses on seeing the whole child and supporting their ambitions rather than putting on academic pressure (gets astoundingly good results). Some private schools are not like that and if there is academic pressure on the kids there also is on the teachers so I imagine that’s not easy to work with.

I’ve no idea if this is helpful to say or not, but I’m not sure where this pressure for over the top extra curricular comes from?

My DC are in a prep which is part of a group and there was an event at a prestigious London venue this year. Our WhatsApp was on fire during the concert as the production values were utterly ridiculous for children singing “twinkle twinkle”. Some of the other schools had some very serious young musicians and there was a panel of composers and conductors critiquing them. Lovely to see talented youngsters but quite surreal to hear 8 year olds spoken to like that. Don’t get me started on when they brought out the gurning opera singer and west end stars and pyrotechnics for the children to sing with.

It definitely wasn’t for benefit of the kids as a whole, parents from our school found it quite cringeworthy (obviously still thought our children were adorable). It’s not great for teaching staff either. So who is it for?

@SpinningTops I’m interested in what you said about behavioural standards declining in private schools too; why do you think that is?

Teachers go from state schools to private schools - but because conditions are generally better at private schools, the schools can be more particular about whom they employ. I knew an outstanding Spanish teacher whose lessons were trashed by bad behaviour in the local comprehensive (and not a bad comprehensive at that) who moved to an independent school and absolutely loved it - same teacher, but such different attitudes from the pupils, and so much better a teaching environment.

My children are/ were in independent secondary after state primary. I’ve taught in mainstream/ and state/ independent special.
The environment for teachers in their secondary is calmer, fewer students (max 15 but as low as 3 in some GCSE classes), behaviour good (but not at all perfect!). Must be nicer in lots of ways to teach there.
But expectations on teachers are definitely high. They are always at every event, whatever time of night or weekend that is.
Teaching is good, they get good results (not surprising), but it is sometimes very old fashioned and ‘traditional’ - takes them a long time to catch up with new ideas. I guess they can pick and choose a bit more about how they teach. Feels a bit stuck in the past but perhaps that’s what some parents are wanting.
Oldest is about to go to grammar for sixth form so it will be interesting to see the difference.

There are good and bad teachers everywhere but what I see happening at a local state is the PE teacher, who happened to do a paper in maths at teacher training, being drafted in to teach GCSE maths (they are self acknowledged hopeless at it) and philosophy. She’s great at crowd control though. Same school now has no computer science teacher. By contrast, big local private school has dedicated teachers for all the niche subjects.

so I would say the main issue is resources, as always

Statements that private schools pay better, have better terms and conditions or have better teaching resources need to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.
There are large and wealthy private schools that can do this. There are also private schools where almost all staff are paid below the minimum for an NQT; where pensions are the bare minimum, where resources are outdated and broken. Subscriptions paid late.
There can be very toxic cultures based on all staff existing in a degree of fear so everyone being out for themselves.
The conditions are totally dependent on the individual school.

I think private school teachers have even more stress for exceptional results and pushy parents than State. So different pressures I’d say.

@Monster6 agree they are cemented in the home.
However wouldn't it be good to assist those dc who don't have an educationally aspirational background!

I’ve been teaching in my current school, Secondary Independent City pretty academic, for 20 years. Reasons it’s great are : I’m an English teacher and am given freedom in how and what I teach - this is in stark contrast to many state schools, our school is staffed by qualified teachers across all subjects. Class sizes are smaller than state but not hugely so and workload is heavy but we are treated like adults. I can leave early if I’m not teaching or not on cover and the students are mostly lovely. My department are fantastic and it’s a stimulating place to work with a real love of the subject. Behaviour is not perfect but we don’t have serious incidents nor a draconian behaviour policy. I doubt I’d still be teaching if I’d stayed in the state sector. I’m 58 and my school values experienced teachers.

We just moved our youngest 2 children out of a private primary school as the teaching was shockingly bad. There were others issues too such at refusing to deal with bullying. My kid's new (also private) school is so much better and we are really happy now. So just like state schools there are good and bad teachers at private schools too.

Pay in the private sector used to be more until about 2023 when I went for a few interviews and suddenly all the jobs seem to pay less than equivalent for the same experience in the state sector and there's the same cost-cutting trend of preferring new grads over experienced teachers starting now too. Unless you can get into a public school or a really famous one but they get inundated with applicants and are extremely competitive. A lot of private schools used to offer accommodation but now they're selling it off to make ends meet. It was already starting before VAT came in.
We've given up on all of it and are going back on the international circuit.

@buffertie if depends how you define better.

A friend I did my PGCE with worked in state schools for 5 years then moved to private.

Private schools don't tend to have the behavioural issues. Schools will ask troublesome kids to leave and the fee paying parents will generally issue their child an ultimatum to behave

Classes are smaller so although planning takes the same time, marking is easier and you can be more thorough and get to know the pupils better.

The downside is the expectations of parents - some parents want to know why their child isn't getting a 7/8/9 and are under the impression that paying fees guarantees them top grades. Quite hard to achieve when the child doesn't work very hard...

But overall my friend much preferred private schools to work in and finds it far more enjoyable.

I enjoy working in a state school. Lesson behaviour is excellent where I work and we have a good behaviour system to remove those causing a disruption in a lesson. But behaviour outside of lessons is awful. Vaping, loads of kids in one toilet cubicle, truanting (up to 50 kids running round school and not in lesson), violent attacks, defiance. And don't get me started on some of the parents - I now refuse to speak to one set of parents as they were so verbally abusive. I see where their son gets it from... It's the management who are awful.

But trying to permanently exclude a child from a state school is almost impossible and VERY expensive, money which schools don't have.

Private schools do not pay better, that’s nonsense, and many have removed staff from TPS. You don’t even have to have QTS to teach there.

My cousin sent his kids to a private primary school. He spoke about the teachers at this primary with utter contempt, saying they were useless older ladies who wanted a quiet life and who couldn’t hack it in any state school. So I don’t think he sent his kids there for the quality of teaching, I presume it was for the smaller classes and the reduced likelihood of disruptive behaviour, due to the ease with which private schools can exclude problem pupils.

Depends. My eldest is taught in classes of 9/10 which I would say has a big impact.
The school is strict, so there’s no tolerance for mucking about so the teacher gets through the syllabus at a fast rate, and they get to go over content. The school days are 8.25 - 4 so this helps, and they are frequently tested.
It’s a semi selective school with entrance exams, but also a fantastic Sen team for the children that need additional support in the classroom.
Teacher pay is on par.

I have worked in both but I would not return to the state sector now. I am paid less than I would be in state but we are still in TPS and I get an excellent free lunch everyday which helps. Smaller class sizes, better behaviour, kids who are motivated. I have been able to pursue excellence in my subject including getting a quality mark I would have had no time for in state. The downside is parents (some, not all) who are frequently over involved and think they own you and your time.

Yes it’s not as if there is a teacher training college for private teachers and a different one for state.

Your last statement is increasingly not the case and is also true in fact, of academy schools. Every colleague I work with either has QTS or is immediately placed on a pathway to qualify as soon as they start.

Yes, absolutely. I forgot to mention the not needing QTS point. My friend teaches in a private school, but doesn’t have a teaching qualification, or equivalent.

I think the point here is that they don’t need to be better owing to smaller classes, fewer disruptive pupils, driven pupils and parents.

Having said this, it would be interesting to compare the teaching at one of the super selective grammars with a comparable private school.

I can only vouch for the private school end of things, better behaviour, smaller class sizes ( 4 in some classes!). Lots of lunchtime extra sessions and exam practice sessions. If the head is good / academic head they will not stand for below par teachers. Look at the exam results. It's maybe easier for them to get rid of bad teachers, I don't know. I know in our place it wouldn't be stood for.

No they are not all selective. Many are, but not all.

That's far less common these days. If they do employ a non qualified person it's likely they'll put them on a pathway to QTS straightaway. I think the OP was talking about it being a better way to work, not the quality of the teaching.

Obviously it varies. Every school, state and private, is different. And what suits one child may not suit another. You need to research them and arrange for your child to have taster days.

My ds goes to a small rural independent. It is non-selective, quite academic, very calm & and massively supportive. My ds has a good brain but lacked confidence after a miserable couple of years at primary. Our state option was in special measures and even Ofsted said it wasn't safe.

The independent has done a great job, ds now has 10 gcses and is on track for ABB at A'level. His confidence is restored, he's got over his PE phobia and is a cheerful, outgoing teen with a good weekend job. For us, it was worth it.