Did women ever stand a chance?

[whynotmereally]

Dawson creek, my so called life, grease, dirty dancing , the breakfast club, Gilmore girls, ginny and Georgia, fifty shades of grey, most Colleen Hoover books.

Girls/women are constantly fed this story about the bad guy that needs saving. He’s misunderstood but it’s ok because he really loves her. Is it any wonder women keep putting up with crap from men when it’s been normalised/romanticised from a young age?

Totally agree with this - Pacey was the lovely, decent guy, whereas Dawson was a whiny manbaby who thought he owned Joey and she owed him sex/a relationship.

Isn't it all about taming the bad boy? I'm not like the other girls. I can fix him.

I agree with your central point although not with all your examples (I'd argue certainly Dirty Dancing and maybe Grease too are actually about young women throwing off family (paternal) expectations and becoming independent, not simply saving bad boys).

Lots of children's books are very bad for this, even modern ones like Twilight for example.

I have to defend Grease a bit. She changes herself (superficially) to attract him at the end but he changes first, trying to be like her. And he’s not really a bad boy - but the unfair treatment of women is confronted in Rizzo’s storyline and in her song.

Don’t disagree with the general point though.

I don't think I ever really thought I should be like anything to make sure a boy or man liked me. I do my own thing and find the men who like that.

I feel like My So-Called Life made it pretty obvious that Jordan was v v handsome but otherwise unsatisfactory. At the end, he gets Angela via an apology that Brian wrote for him, and it’s hinted that maybe Angela has realised that. So I didn’t think the ending was affirming Jordan being the ‘right’ choice, it’s more about Angela’s immaturity and making dumb choices based on the priorities of a fifteen-year-old.

I think in the DVD commentary or an interview the writer talked about how Angela would see Brian very differently in a couple of years (and how that was mirrored by the actor who played him cutting his hair shorter and growing up a bit over the course of the show and offscreen, girls were starting to notice him and he was gaining more confidence). A bit like how Angela pivots away from her best friend Sharon and towards Rayanne at the start of the show, but has fallen out with Rayanne and pivoted back to Sharon by the end. I think we’re meant to see Jordan as a temporary rebellious experiment like her friendship with Rayanne, but at the end of the day she’ll prob pivot back to someone like Brian who is middle class and school smart and can offer her a future Jordan can’t. So in some ways you could see it as her using Jordan for some temporary thrills rather than the other way round. Let’s be honest, she would probably be pretty bored by him in a couple of years.

Personally I got slight incel/entitlement vibes from Brian so I’m not necessarily very keen on him as an alternative either, but that was how the writer seemed to be thinking about it.

I remember feeling really gutted at the end of MSCL when it was hinted that she might be looking at Brian differently - definitely agree about the incel vibes. Jordan was hot but really boring. A much more satisfying ending would have been if she shrugged both of them off and realised she didn't actually need a boyfriend at all.

Actually I've just remembered that my ultimate teenage bad boy crush was Rivers from Heartbreak High - now he was well fit and had hidden depths too 😅I would love to know what Mumsnet made of him (and his raunchy relationship with his teacher!)

So talking animals in children's TV is perfectly ok bit fictional shows or movies older children, teens and adults is an issue?

Paw patrol and Ben and Holly are sexist, it's everywhere.

There's no story without the 'bad boy', though! Bridget Jones (or Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice), for example. The interest hinges on us all knowing that Mark Darcy (Mr Darcy) is ultimately the more sensible choice but he's boring. It's all about the fun, the heartbreak, the highs and lows along the way to finally the realisation that the good guy isn't boring and unlikable after all.

Yep. Now it’s the far left as well. Basically many men hate women, and sadly most (I think most) women just can’t see that.

…

I loved Jordan and River . Always the bad guys.

Thanks for posting this, I am saving the thread as it’s basically developed into a discussion of what I want to write my MA thesis on!

Jordan turned out to be a massive disappointment though didn't he, as the series went on - when Angela finally got with him he was actually really boring and a bit thick. Which I guess was the point. I never rewatched Heartbreak High and can't exactly remember how Rivers' character developed, but in my memory he was funny and interesting as well as being angry and sexy. Sigh....

Excellent let us know any conclusions you come to

I can’t remember it towards the end so I think I just watched him peak dark and brooding.