Which of your children would take up arms if need be to defend their country

[Lardychops]

Ive been thinking about this a lot lately in a thought experiment/abstract way since Ukraine invasion and having lived years ago in Israel where young people do national service from 17 as a matter of course with frequent refreshers- obviously now for them being put to the test .
So, my question is -
In terms of the ‘barbarians at the gates scenario which of your children/neices /nephews /siblings parents would drop everything to defend their country/ city/town/ village and family if they needed to ? And do you think their lifestyle/career path impacts on this?

I have 1DD single mother of 3 - she would have been first in the queue pre kids and if I looked after them she would be first to front line

3x DS - all tradesmen- without hesitation- 1 has a child but a partner - he would be first on the front line after his sister. One of them would be terrified but his pride would make him follow his brothers to protect his family rather than any bigger picture

1xDSD - works in retail -No doubt she would pick up arms and fight to the death.

1xDSD- left Uni-just got back from travelling - nothing in hospitality- no chance.

Have you read Daphne du Maurier's novel 'Rule Britannia' - about this scenario? A good read.

We have no protected borders and the country is being flooded by strong, healthy, intelligent young males everyday.
So what exactly would we be fighting to protect?
2 Tier Kier is just manufacturing conflict to detract from his hopeless leadership.

Seems that some posters don't think the British way of life is worth defending, and would have been happy learning to speak German (and accept Nazism as a way of life) in the 1930's and 1940's.

I have simply asked if it's worth defending. We don't exactly have a track record of looking after soldiers who have served do we?
Also I'm not sure why you have extrapolated capitulation over death to mean one is happy about it? Everyone will have their own boundary about what the lesser evil is. I don't think that's a radical opinion.

Both of mine have mild disabilities so wouldn't pass an army medical, so neither.

I really believe that irrespective of our immigrant status, 'buy-in' to nationhood, community and the understanding that the defense of the liberties we enjoy in our adopted homeland is a shared responsibility, irrespective of how much of a stake one feels one has in society.

I think many young people would feel different regardless if they are indigenous or not. A lot feel the social contract has been broken.

Love this - I have 3 granddaughters & I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of the youngest (aged 9) - she's her own woman & is very happy to say what she thinks. DH & me often say that she will make sure that if any idiot takes her or her older sister for a fool he will know about it!😍

My niece is a conscientious objector but she's just come back from Palestine where she was operating on children and her risking life and limbs.

I live in Finland, which used to be part of the Russian Empire, the Empire Putin wants to recreate. This is a real threat.

It absolutely has been broken. I’m in the rare position - for my cohort - of owning a house (mortgaged) and being able to have a child. I did okay academically, got a degree, worked reasonably hard and now I have a cheap home in a northern city and can afford one child. Two people working full-time. Eight year old second hand car. It’s not much, but we’ve managed it.

The thing is, that’s because we’ve been a couple since we were teenagers. We’ve been able to align our goals and split everything. Most of my peers didn’t meet their future spouse aged 15. And it still took us until 30 to get here.

Lots of my peers did the right thing, decent degrees, smart career choices, and have still ended up in their parents box bedroom with no prospect of moving out. They’ve started emigrating en masse. I’ve got two friends gone to Australia, one to Germany, one to Poland, one to Ireland in the last 18 months. Not only are they peak working age and were net contributors to the economy but they feel little if any loyalty to the UK. It basically sent them packing because the opportunities to get on in life aren’t here.

This idea that we just should be loyal in some way to this country is for the birds. There’s little for us here.

@treesfalling I said: I really believe that irrespective of our immigrant status, 'buy-in' to nationhood, community and the understanding that the defense of the liberties we enjoy in our adopted homeland is a shared responsibility, irrespective of how much of a stake one feels one has in society.
You responded: I think many young people would feel different regardless if they are indigenous or not. A lot feel the social contract has been broken.
Thank you for bringing up social contract theory. These days, as its usage in common discourse widens, it's usually suffixed with the descriptor 'broken'. This irritates me. As an electorate, we really do get the governance we deserve (although, under an electoral system such as first past the post, this comes with some caveats, unless, of course, electoral reform itself is also included in my initial assertion). As such, I think that when we sit back and survey Britain or indeed 'the social contract' and declare them "broken...", with no resolve to snap into constructive action, we are bailing on our collective responsibility to work toward unbreaking it.

we are bailing on our collective responsibility to work toward unbreaking it.

what do you suggest they do?

For me collectively it means across all of society but many don't even acknowledge how young people feel.

I can understand young people in the UK feeling like the social contract has been broken and not seeing a reason to fight for a (series of) government(s) that constantly let them down but you realise in an invasion you aren't fighting for a government that doesn't care about you, you're fighting for your home, for your family, your friends, your neighbours, and your own lives.

Not wanting to fight for your country carrying out an offensive war elsewhere is one thing (and something I agree with wholeheartedly) but not wanting to fight a defensive war in your own country is something else.

But there are options between fighting & death. Why are people pretending surrendering isn't a thing!

@Natsku has expressed my sentiment faster and more succinctly than I could.
I'm not arguing that the social contract is not broken, but rather that social contract or not will be neither here nor there in terms of outcomes, were we to face a serious threat of ground invasion.
And I absolutely hear DeathlyGreenAngel and generations of young people in the UK who are really struggling. There are some very radical reforms to housing in particular needed in Britain, and we can all put our shoulders to the door to seek to help bring these about.

Good point. I don't think anyone is pretending it isn't a thing but rather working on the assumption that surrender sits somewhere in the 'least preferred' category, just above 'death'.

And of course a soldier at your front door who wants to kill your family is very different to canon fodder on the front line.

Of course its a thing but whether or not its a viable option depends on who you are fighting.

Which is what I have said numerous times so I'm glad you agree!

And we can all appreciate that "I don't want anything to happen to my family" sentiment but where does that actually leave you?

If you were Ukrainian and you and every one else there had your attitude Russia would have walked into your country 3 years ago - Russian soldiers walking down your street, into your house, your workplace, your shops, your whole life. Russia would then be in charge and as the 'conquered people' life wouldn't be much fun. Plus Russia's control would now extend to the Eastern edge of mainland Europe and if everyone there felt the same as you the march West would continue unchecked. Life as you know it now would not exist nor the future you may have imagined for your children/grandchildren or even just for yourself. The idea that if you don't fight then nothing bad would happen to you or yours is fantasy. All choices have consequences.

For many people fighting might not even be an option. I can imagine that if there is a civil war, and I happen to live in an area ruled by the enemy, the options might be leaving, complying or being killed.

I would want to see the sons and daughters of our politicians fight (and die) before any child of mine did.

Our elites always expect other people to fight, but they and their kin are too important

(They also expect other people’s kids to become plumbers, childminders and so on whilst their kids and do some bullshit job WFH in HR)

I'm a first-wave kinda gal, and that's one of the 20 million reasons I avoided having children. I don't care if this makes me a coward, but I didn't ask for any of this and I hate to suffer more than I already do, at the hands of another.

I can't speak for my DB and his young family though, sadly. He is married to a central European wife who I suspect supports Russia so that's a different conversation entirely.

And we can all appreciate that "I don't want anything to happen to my family" sentiment but where does that actually leave you?

Do you think the Ukrainians who left have regretted it?

Impossible for me to know obvs, either on an individual or mass basis, each person's answer may be different. That dilemma of "could I have made a difference?"

And obvs Ukraine was only an example - the principle is true wherever or whatever the conflict - stand up or give in, both choices have their consequences.