Crazy religious ex husband

[Lavenderfarmcottage]

To give context - I am a single Mum & currently have as hashimotos & an infection. I’m exhausted and tired and have a DS 8 turning 9. My Dad has died, my Mum is fragile & erratic after loss of my sister and our family has always been fractured and small. I feel very unsupported and alone. The other mums are nice but everyone has busy lives and are at maximum capacity.

My DS aged 8 turning 9 refused to visit his Dad lately. My ex husband is increasingly religious, this has always been the case. I was raised Catholic but he has taken it to new levels. He insists on only going to Latin mass as this is traditional which means driving 30 minutes each way to church. He observes holy Friday’s as per an apparition which said to go to mass each Friday. This means he wishes or tried to take my son out of school.

This evening I agreed to go to football training with my ex husband and son, mainly because my child would get anxious if it was just my ex husband at pick up if he hadn’t planned. Football training went over time and we all agreed to drive to DS 8 favourite dinner place spontaneously and at his request. It’s a 20 minute drive and ex husband asked for all pray the rosary for 20 minutes agreeing I didn’t have to join in. I was happy to pray but requested that we do 10 minutes as DS is 8. I politely requested this as I said 20 after school is a bit much for a little kid. Ex husband said find you don’t have to sulking but insisted son remain praying. He then continued praying without me in a high pitch semi crying sulking voice.

Trying to build their relationship and encourage a balanced and middle ground as I really need the support.

would appreciate advice,

Unfortunately it's a sure fire way to put off your DS for life. Very sad.

@Lavenderfarmcottage I think you are under reacting.

Religious extremism can lead to dangerous situations.

It might be worth your time speaking to Social Services and getting their advice. If your son is being forced to observe zealot like faith then they may intervene. Your poor boy is going to grow up pleasing others to his own detriment if you don't reinforce now that he can have healthy boundaries and he can say no to his DD.

Don't compromise with ex anymore. He's not meeting you halfway and you've done enough.

Please consider that his warped zealot mind may go even more over the edge when you start pulling back and you may be physically unsafe near him.

None of the woman and kids murdered by men ever think they will be. Be careful with your ex and put your son and self first.

Really interested in this. Ex husband talks a lot about Vatican 2 and breakdown of the church and change from Latin mass to traditional. It is impossible to get through to him. He has been watching a lot of YouTube. There’s some commentators on the far right who are Catholic and very influential republicans & YouTubers.

OP, I recognise many elements of your post, especially the fervour around the Latin mass.

I am really concerned for you - being ill (both chronic and incidental) makes people more vulnerable.

The fighting/clever part of me wants to say: how about the seven works of mercy? The basic attention to physical and emotional need that takes account of the sick, or those who are depleted. In the old rendering - food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, visits to the sick. Today it could mean - remembering you need attention and listening to, your son needs caregivers who remember he is depleted after a school day.

The more earthy part of me wants to say - start making plans that separate you from DH.

I've seen the destructive side of TradWorld as well as the way people depend on it for survival. Not pretty.

Hmmm…. My take on religion is a firm to each their own.

That being said some of the things you describe don’t seem too far out there, example being the Latin Mass. It’s fairly common for people to prefer Mass in Latin. If the closest one is 40 min away then it’s 40 min away (which is really not that far).

Some of the activities are stretching it (if I’m understanding correctly what you are describing) like the rosary after practice and the taking your son out of school. So I’d watch that and intervene when necessary.

All that being said… Your son is a great age to have some good discussions about religious practices. Including the topics of everyone practices differently, some people go too far with it (radicalization), and some people don’t practice at all. Also stress that he should never feel forced to practice (or practice in a way that makes him uncomfortable).

I would also trust your gut on this topic. You come across as a very reasonable person who has an open mind. Continue to intervene when appropriate. I suspect your son will continue to pull back from your ex and will probably have less contact over the next few years.

Ahhh then I'm afraid he's been sucked into the nebulous Christian ultra-right (very powerful and influential). I'm not sure how you can get through to him though, they are expert manipulators but maybe think of it like he's fallen into the orbit of a type of cult. It's like a religious manosphere. For context on who is behind all of that politically, if you have Netflix I recommend you watch The Family.
I'm afraid it won't provide concrete solutions on how to deal with your ex but at least you may have some context.

I think he’s channeling his OCD into religious mania and once your DS begins to pull further away, it’s going to be difficult with EXH. I would document all of his radical ideas and unreasonable behaviours. I suspect you are going to need to limit access sooner rather than later.

You sound like a lovely and understanding person to your ex husband and he is very lucky you are being so patient with him!
I do agree with some other posts that your ex sounds like he's taking the religion to extremes and I would be concerned.

Convincing, manipulative, messing with your head, seeming nice but controlling, all this is abuser signs, and the religiosity is a red flag

You need to seriously consider this. He seems to be wanting to use it to control you by suggesting home schooling which would dramatically control your life if you acceded to it. Religious abuse is a thing.

Ex husband is ocd and anxious and just very silent and vague and controlling Or maybe this is his new manifestation of his underlying mental health issues. But now it is involving controlling your son and you too.

Whatever the cause this is far from normal or acceptable behaviour.

I would keep a record of all these behaviours if you ever need them. Although courts are far too keen on maintaining contact with abusive fathers, they won't look too kindly on a Father wanting to take a child out of school. Record everything including things like your son being scared to mention the Glee club to his Dad and being anxious about going and cancelling visits.
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The first Friday devotion is an actual thing. It is based on a vision. Can’t remember who though. But it’s only the first Friday of the month. You are supposed to get extra blessings if you go to mass on every first Friday.

Well, or the 'visionaries' in Medjugorje, which I think remains only 'semi-authorised' by the church (which made clear last year it wasn't saying the apparitions had actually taken place, only that they approved of 'prudent devotion' to the BVM), and is fairly clearly to me a classic instance of poor, powerless children who got a lot of attention from claiming to experience visions and receive messages and 'secrets' and most of whom still live in Medjugorje and benefit from the religious tourism the shrine has brought in.

I would point out to people too that this man isn't a Catholic in the usual sense. The use of the 'Tridentine' or pre-Vatican II Latin mass is strictly restricted by the Vatican, and many of those who celebrate and attend it are often not authorised -- there is a church near where I live which is used by a traditionalist society who are regarded as excommunicated by the Vatican, as their priests were ordained by renegade bishops created by Marcel Lefebre, one of whom is a notorious Holocaust-denier. They are associated with far-right nationalism, particularly in France, and with anti-Semitism, and with deeply misogynistic views of women etc.

So it's not just that the OP's ex is religious with an aesthetic preference for Latin masses, he's a member of an extremist splinter group with associations with some very ugly positions.

Yes. I mean, I grew up doing it. My mother still does it. But taking a child out of school to attend a first Friday mass is absolutely not normal!

Is he receiving Holy Communion at Mass?
Did you get your marriage annulled?
If you're divorced without an annullment he should not be receiving Holy Communion (I personally don't agree with that). The TLM people are very very strict on things like that.

That's got nothing to do with your problem though, I'm just interested because he's making such a big deal being ultra conservative etcetc and yet he's divorced.

He's got a screw loose and you need to keep your child well away from him.

You've said yourself he is manipulative, and you most definitely do not want him to start manipulating and indoctrinating your child against you.

I left as he became violent at times - think high work stress and some sort of neuro diversity that stops him being able to express himself well or communicate well - he goes blank and gets vague and loses his words. He’s otherwise bright and witty but just can’t articulate or convey himself I think and gets frustrated and is just very mixed up with his ideas. He’ll often say he’s the man and the leader and the man makes the rules - he seems utterly bizarre and his behaviour is something we would have both agreed is bizarre a decade ago. Though he isn’t a monster and can be a very nice person most of the time. In part I think it was my fault as we are so different and I should have been the one to leave sooner. He insists we are still married & won’t get a divorce. I would love for him to get it annulled and find someone else & be happy - I don’t think he will otherwise remarry.

& yes he is like a cult member. He talks in very black and white simplistic terms and short over simplified statements and sentences.

I also thought it could be Medjugorge. I know quite a lot about that through my work. As you say, the Vatican has approved the devotion and has recognized the "spiritual fruits" of the movement but has not approved the apparitions. People I know (and I know a lot) who have been to Medjugorje have come back with a renewed faith, pray the Rosary 3 times a day, go to church all the time, have prayer groups, go to confession every week etc.

OP's ex could be going to a genuine, approved Tridentine Mass. A lot were approved by bishops during Benedict's papacy when he relaxed restrictions. Diocesan priests saying Mass in the Extraordinary Form usually have been approved. It's the SSPX which is not permitted at all. Pope Francis brought restrictions on the TLM back, I think because the movement is getting out of control.

My Dad started attending TLM 20 years ago and was so happy to return to the Mass of his childhood. The liturgy is beautiful and many people are attracted to it. I went to Mass with him a couple of times. Surprisingly there were so many young people there. However, what I really didn't like, was their very conservative views on almost everything and their judgemental behaviour towards others. One of Dad's supposed friends from TLM, after he died suddenly, said to me "Well I hope in the moment of death he had time to confess his sins otherwise he'll be going to hell". Of course he bloody didn't have time to confess his sins, he had a heart attack in his sleep!!

Something I've noticed in the last few years is that right wing Christians, especially in the US, have really latched on to the TLM. As someone else points out up thread it's a Catholic version of the misogynistic manosphere. Women should cover their heads with a veil at Mass, traditional roles for men and women, no contraception, lots of children etc. And as you point out, a lot of anti-semitism and far right beliefs.
There are lots of tiktok and facebook reels with beautiful young women talking about going to TLM and wearing a veil and all the rest of it. And also a lot of unpleasant youtube videos of priests and, usually men, condemning the "Novus Ordo" (the "normal" Catholic Mass) as not being worthy and not being valid.

It's a major problem in the Catholic church and I certainly don't envy Pope Leo having to deal with that!!

@Lavenderfarmcottage i think you are being unreasonable to stay with this person!! he is going way over the top with finding his religion. verging on obsessive!

I am the Catholic parent, same 'level' as when I met my ex who has now said it am a 'psychological religious' person, etc etc. However, what you describe is hardcore, and along with what you describe often comes some very old-school Catholic opinions. I would keep an open dialogue with your son, use it as a way to question the world. Some of what Catholicism discusses can be about just being a good human being, some I find judgemental and not acceptable (and I am Catholic). I'd use it as an opportunity to discuss what your child thinks is being a good person, rather than what dad says. Also fact vs opinion games can be useful. This would be useful about the trunks comments.

I would suggest if your son does not want to go and gets anxiety about going but isn't able to explain his reasoning it means he is trying to communicate but not able to. Consider speaking to school about counselling opportunities. I would also listen and validate his feelings and follow his lead to some degree. If you can, go to dinner as a three, but that requires you to be very strong and I would struggle seeing my son feeling forced into something that is challenging for that age group. 20mins of repetition is difficult, even if you take out the religious part.
I would be concerned if this is a brand new religious way of life, it is extremely strong and 'my way'of life that and sounds rather like he is trying to jot control whst happens in your home. Well done for standing firm for your son.

I'm so sorry. That's awful. I assumed you were divorced.
He won't want a divorce because he won't be able to receive Holy Communion if he starts a relationship with someone else. I realized I said he couldn't receive Holy Communion if he's divorced, I'm a bit tired today, but it's if he remarries that he can't, or if he starts a physical relationship with someone else.

Can you not get divorced anyway? I'm afraid I dont know how things like this work but if you don't want to stay married to him why should you.

I would be contacting a solicitor and investigating my options to protect my child.

Just a thought but I’m wondering if it would be worth reaching out to your pp about this? This isn’t mainstream Catholicism, and they might be better positioned to advise or support you, and possibly to reach out and support him too.

Do you know where he is attending Latin mass? It could be under the auspices of one of the groups that are breakaways from the RC church, which is why I’m saying not to assume that a priest would consider this all fine and dandy. It’s not going to be the first time that they’ve seen religion and MH issues intersect either.

Has he been to Medjugorje?

I’m a Christian and I agree with this. He sounds seriously unwell and potentially dangerous.

You can divorce him. He does not get to 'allow' it or give his permission.

Please disentagle yourself from this abusive man and keep your child safe and well away from him. You do not want him to start indoctrinating your dc with fundamentalist religious beliefs. Nor do you want your dc to be at risk from harm. Cult followers can do tragic things.