To think the school system is ridiculous

[Suflan]

This post is talking about the school system in the republic of Ireland, but I know that the school system in the UK has some similiatites, so this is also relevant to people in the UK.

I went to school in Ireland a long time ago, 20 years ago.

My younger cousins are just sitting their school leaving certificate (irish equivalent to a levels) this year and they and their friends have been posting about the exams, after it happened, on social media.

I was just thinking what they learn and do exams on is such a load of shite. Like how is it relevant or necessary in todays world at all.

They posted about their maths paper, all the quadratic equations, prove that point 5,1 is on the line etc etc, extremely complicated equations, and algebra.

Like what do you need that for in life? Its so totally pointless. And maths is mandatory to do, so they need points from maths to get into University.

Like what is the point of learning these things. Surely they should be learning something useful. My cousins have said to me that they think that a lot of what they learn is totally pointless too

"Makes me question whether you should be working in education"

What rubbish.

Wanting the currciulum to be updated and improved is a good thing.

I listen to students, and a lot of them want things in the education system to be changed.

The teachers in my school complain all the time about the English education system. You should hear the conversations in the staffroom. They want things to be improved.

Should they not be working in education either?

Did a quick google for jobs needing algebra:
Jeweller
Dietician/nutritionist
Air traffic controller
Working in broadcasting
Carpenter
Market research analyst
Buyer
Meteorologist

Just for starters

It's about being able to learn and think, as much as the subject.

But HOW do you suggest changing it.

That’s the answer you aren’t giving.
Of course it can be updated and changed but cutting out key subjects and concepts is not a good good start!

My two pence worth. It should be broader, more subjects at a slightly lower level until 18. Coursework to account for at least 40% of the grade.

Students since time immemorial have wanted to change education. That doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. Designing a curriculum requires a lot of expertise that they won’t have yet.

A huge amount of time and effort goes into ensuring the curriculum hits all the right notes. It’s not like it comes from nowhere.

I'll add in lots of medical careers.

Paediatric medication is often given in x ml per Kg weight of child.

Radiographers need to calculate how much radiation they expose someone to.

Surgeons putting things like metal pins in your broken arm.

A chef scaling up a menu to feed 50 people at a wedding. Yes you can do it with ratios but you don't want to increase the salt content by 50.

Again though, same point.
SO many ways to teach all of these things other than just algebra. To think we can only develop these skills via algebra is very naive.

Not really as they were on about school and you don't do A levels at school. You do GCSEs. A levels are at college or 6th form.

That is what maths is about. Logic and reasoning is one of the 5 big ideas of maths. All maths includes logic and reasoning or it isnt maths!

Like rattling off your times tables isnt maths. Using your times tables is.

Disliking Shakespeare is hardly the same as not being able to go to the loo when you want. Simplistically, you can't have students wandering off to the loo in the middle of lessons all the time. (Yes, I always let them go, before anyone complains). OP are you talking to fed up 16 yr olds who are ready to move on, or similar?
Would I be correct in thinking students choose their subjects in the last years of their school studies so they had some idea what they were taking on?
There's a lot of talk about studying life skills-tax, mortgages, government, budgeting. Many students simply are not interested at the point these subjects are introduced.
We did have fun though, teaching the 6th form who were about to go to Uni about budgeting. We asked them to design a nutritionally balanced menu for a week, based on a supermarket's on line shopping website and a strict budget. That worked well.

I agree we need much better vocational pathways, OP - and societal respect for those who pursue them. But as PP have said, even those doing vocational training need a fair amount of algebra and geometry!

Schools have 6th forms. A minor point, but they do.

Ebacc then?

All can be done more accurately using apps!

Lots of careers use algebra, you (most people) just don’t realise it. Engineering, computing, Finance.

@ladyamyapplications is not easier than maths, it’s just a different course. They’re both the same level of qualification and the same amount of work. I have a relative who is a maths teacher and often has to make the point that no, applications isn’t a lesser or easier choice.

No they were talking about A levels. It is quite clear if you read their OP.

6th form is considered to be part of secondary school where I am.

I agree that some subjects need an overhaul but I don’t agree with your attitude towards maths. Personally I hated maths at school and was not good at it but I can see the importance of it (and algebra). I was one of those people who would say who the heck uses algebra in real life, until my son put me right (he’s doing an engineering degree).

If you’ve ever been in a car or a plane OP then thank algebra for that.

Surely algebra had to come into play first before apps could exist?

A huge amount of people are really bad at maths. They are unable to calculate percentages, can’t read a clock or timetable, can’t understand really basic statistics (covid rather proved that), can’t work out if they can manage their mortgage repayments, don’t understand interest, can’t understand data, don’t have any feel for numbers so can’t estimate, can’t do currency conversions, think VAT is 20p not 20%, have no understanding of the cost of something longer term such as a dog.

I’m talking about well educated people who are good at hiding it, as well as people who openly admit it.

Algebra is an abstract representation of real, concrete things. It goes from very basic to very complicated. At the basic level we all use it.

@Suflan

What rubbish.
Wanting the currciulum to be updated and improved is a good thing.

I have no problem with updating and improving the curriculum.

What worries me about your perspective is you seem to have no understanding of the fact that education is inherently valuable, not just valuable because of specific vocational skills it teaches or specific content.

You're assuming that if you have no use for a particular skill in a career then there is no value in learning it. It's a well-trodden argument but completely debunked.

What percentage of children who study History through to A level go on to become professional historians? Infinitesimally tiny. Presumably I don't need to spell out to you the value for children today of learning about the Nazi concentration camps in WW2 (to take one very obvious example... there are thousands more). Almost no one who learns that information at school will apply it in their professional life let alone, God forbid, their personal life but I defy you to tell me its not important to learn about it.

The same argument can be made of any subject on the mainstream curriculum of most education systems in most western democracies (including algebra). The practice of learning about something makes you cleverer, more resilient, more open-minded.

The fact that you can't grasp this suggests you haven't understood the fundamental principles of education.

Algebra is useless? Good luck with that.

In a world of Artificial intelligence if you want to be one of those steering and building the future algebra is one of the only things that matters. It is all maths.

I don’t think anyone seriously believes it’s the only way to teach those skills. It’s more about how to maximise the value of the lesson time and how can those concepts be effectively taught at scale in a typical classroom.

I don't think the school system is fit for purpose, and I think curriculum overhaul is a very good thing, but a lot of people talk about curriculum overhaul and say "get rid of algebra and Shakespeare, teach them budgeting and first aid instead" as if it has to be either/or.

Shakespeare and algebra both still have massive value on the curriculum. I remember the moment Shakespearean language became "translatable" in my head; it felt like a new world opening up to me. I hated algebra at school, but as a mature compsci student it's been so beneficial.

I think the ideal curriculum is actually impossible to achieve in a school environment because it involves building the curriculum around an individual's interests. DD is 11, home educated and very interested in sociology. We started following the syllabus and it naturally led to other subjects - we did a deep dive into statistics and sampling; she learned how to construct a paragraph correctly and the different mnemonics for that; we considered different types of experiments and how these should be conducted; we explored the history of Marxism; we consider the geography of where studies are conducted. Because she's interested in sociology, she absorbs all this peripheral learning like a sponge.

It works brilliantly for an individual student, but schools are caught between a rock and a hard place. As a teacher, I would have loved to give each and every pupil a curriculum like that, but it just wasn't feasible - all you can do is try to build in some cross curricular learning and themes and hope it has some effect.

I know that.
What I’m saying is that teaching maths isn’t the only way to teach logic, reasoning etc.

There are myriad ways of teaching those things in this world.