To think the school system is ridiculous

[Suflan]

This post is talking about the school system in the republic of Ireland, but I know that the school system in the UK has some similiatites, so this is also relevant to people in the UK.

I went to school in Ireland a long time ago, 20 years ago.

My younger cousins are just sitting their school leaving certificate (irish equivalent to a levels) this year and they and their friends have been posting about the exams, after it happened, on social media.

I was just thinking what they learn and do exams on is such a load of shite. Like how is it relevant or necessary in todays world at all.

They posted about their maths paper, all the quadratic equations, prove that point 5,1 is on the line etc etc, extremely complicated equations, and algebra.

Like what do you need that for in life? Its so totally pointless. And maths is mandatory to do, so they need points from maths to get into University.

Like what is the point of learning these things. Surely they should be learning something useful. My cousins have said to me that they think that a lot of what they learn is totally pointless too

I've worked in a number of different education systems and actually the Irish one has been my favourite. People come out much more rounded having studied a wider berth of subjects. While the points race is a nightmare people are actually much better at operating under pressure and resilience levels are higher among general population. A lot of spoonfeeding in the UK and in England a lot of pressure in terms of the target grades etc. doesn't help pupils to be independent thinkers or responsible for their own experiences/learning (don't get me wrong there are plenty of amazing young people in the UK but the increased apathy and blame game has always irritated me).

Yes some of what you learn you might never need to use. That does not make it pointless. My life has been enriched from having an understanding of literature. Do I need to know poetry - absolutely not. Has it added value to my life and helped me understand people I encounter and hobbies I enjoy - absolutely. I work in education (not STEM) and use algebra. Did honours maths in Ireland and while I've never used differentiation for example the learning process and skills developed, not to mention the rising to a challenge has all been useful. I've never needed to use my history either yet it is a real asset in helping form opinions and show compassion with all that is happening in the world right now.

While the Irish system is not perfect I think it is often undervalued. If I had the option I would much prefer my kids were to go through the Irish system than either of the UK systems.

I work in software design/solution architecture and I use maths and algebra on a daily basis. Even just the concepts of maths learnt at A level (I did maths and further maths) help with understanding and analysing system calculations, spreadsheets etc.

Ireland is the most highly educated country in the world so the school system must be doing something right.

I have a kid that has just finished the JC and you sound a lot like her. She's been rolling eyes and asking me why she needs to know French and Tech graph anyway.

It's possible to play the point system...aiming for a high mark at pass will give good enough points for subjects at third level that don't require honours maths. Same with Irish for those who hate it! Do lcvp and get points from that...all kinds of manoeuvres. Although you need maths to add up the points as you navigate cao.

Ireland has a small population. The countries with small populations, usually come out at top of lists such as these.

Really! Wonder how they worked that out!

Maybe using geography or art

Maybe she has a point.. although no one ever listens to teenagers.

Honestly, I've worked in several schools.

There is definitely a lot if abuse of teenagers happening, because I can really see some teachers just loving the power they have over students. #notallteachers. But I've seen it happen in every school that I've been in.

**

Population is part of Geography actually....

And statistics is part of maths!! See usefull

Algebra is required in many fields, and this is a fact.
You can have an opinion, but when something is a fact, opinions do not matter.
Children having the opinion that school is rubbish doesn't make it so.

High performance in maths reflects strong general cognitive abilities as it is closely tied to logical reasoning, problem-solving, and analytical thinking. Research shows that maths achievement in secondary school correlates highly with university performance.

Ironically, linear algebra is a fundamental mathematical foundation of artificial intelligence, but all this is lost on OP who will soon be replaced by AI.

Like....
maths is always relevant whether you like it or not. Everyone does it at school and always has.

The point of these exams is to assess how capable someone is at applying themselves, even at subjects at which they are not particularly good.

Accountant here. I don't use much complex maths, but algebra can be pretty simple and I use it all the time. Gross value of an invoice is £240, vat is 20%, what is the net value.

The thought process is algebra.

DP is an engineer and uses both algebra and trigonometry.

I would say every member of my immediate family uses or used maths every day in their job.

But we like it, I wouldn't make it compulsory to 18. There are other skills.

It is changed and overhauled constantly (I know quite a few teachers who are spend lots of time on meetings/paperwork due to everything changing). Parents are often aware of some changes, for example Roman numerals is on the primary curriculum and we didn't learn that then. Whether it's changed enough, or in the right way, is open to debate. They do more non-academic things now, like life-skills, tooth-brushing, potty-training and dealing with relationships/internet bullying, but lots of people argue about whether parents should be doing the non-academic stuff.

@LemondrizzleSharkOh I agree with you, my original comment regarding the range of options in Scotland was in direct response to an earlier poster who said it would be better if there was an option for maths and financial services, which I also agree with. I was just highlighting that those options are available in Scotland.
You are also right though that the OP is speaking about the Irish system 🙂

All I can say is thank God I'm not studying Quadratic Equations or Algebra anymore.

I also dont think that things like poetry should determine what career you get into in your life. Your career is so important.

Poetry is nice to read, but you shouldn't need it to get into University .

Studying English is mandatory to in Ireland aswell. In English, you have to study Poetry. And the poetry questions are always very vague. I saw students complaining online about the poetry questions this year. You have to study English to get the correct points to get into University

So why should someone who wants to study to be a doctor or nurse / or work in computers /engineering in ireland, have their University choices dependant on if they can answer questions about poetry..

Literally all of machine learning is based on algebra. So all the recent AI advances, (like ChatGPT, AI drug discovery, AI image generation…) that’s all possible because of people who can do the kind of maths that you think is irrelevant. Just because you don’t personally use something in your job, doesn’t mean it’s not worth teaching in schools.

And to preempt the inevitable next argument: no, most AI engineering doesn’t involve a lot of solving equations by hand, the actual arithmetic is done by the computer. But understanding how that sort of maths works is completely essential for developing the necessary algorithms, and that understanding starts with solving simple equations in school.

Because you’re not backing yours up with anything. You don’t use maths in your post-school life, so you don’t appear to grasp that many careers absolutely require it. My son is at secondary school in Ireland at the moment. He’s getting a good general education. He’s naturally maths-minded, and will quite possibly do something after school that requires maths.

So now it’s maths and English is out?

So what should people be studying

Algebra is so completely irrelevant in this day and age.

If you want to be simplistic, and it's clear that you do, then when was Algebra ever 'relevant'? One could say the same about History, Geography, in fact most school subjects, maybe we should revert to the Victorian days when all children need to be little wage serfs was a knowledge of basic arithmetic, ie sums, a good written hand and an awareness of grammar.
The ability to study and understand somewhat Algebra says something about a person's willingness to study and that they don't throw the towel in as soon as things get difficult, characteristics that employers value.

@SuflanI totally hear you about not being able to win on mumsnet! So true! I would say it depends if you’re referring to things specific to England or things that are relevant to all UK countries, but I can see that could be easy to muddle up depending where you live yourself. But I’m derailing your thread here sorry. Back to maths 🙃

I was just reading a news article about a young man in ireland. He wanted to be a Doctor, but he failed the leaving certificate as he felt there were too many subjects that he had to do that he wasn't interested in, he felt that the system was too rigid, and he also had an anxiety disorder.

He failed the leaving certificate. But he found a pre uni access course that would take him. He is now studying and passing all of his exams in his science degree, and he is going to apply to study Medicine after this degree.

That's quite inspiring, and he is a good example of why people should only be studying what they are actually interested in studying in. It doesn't benefit some students to make them study loads of subjects that they have no interest in

I feel posters are unfairly jumping on OP. Her sentiment is well understood. It's being used by posters to demean and belittle her. The sentiment makes sense.

What I believe she means is that for a pretty large proportion - maths, say in the form of algebra is not of use for them. They have neither the interest or skill. Exactly how and at what point can you pull this group out and allow them the opportunity to cultivate their inate skills in an area they excel at....that's the question.

I believe there is a better way. I'd need a number of hours and a few quid to work on possible ways this could work in practice 🤷😆

He won't make a good Dr then if he pathologises fear!

They should be studying what they want to study, and what is relevant to them.