Why is it so hard to fire someone in some organisations?

[Merryoldgoat]

Now I am someone who thinks it’s important to have fair hiring practices and maintaining a professional work environment.

However my DH has been having an utter nightmare with one of his team members and HR have made him go through an unbelievable amount of rigmarole to just get to the point where they are about to offer him money to go.

The guy has been less than two years.

A few examples of what he’s done

Lied to my husband’s face about when he started work multiple times

Missed deadlines after reassuring DH he’d ’nearly finished’

Going AWOL and refusing to answer messages or calls

Inappropriate use of sick leave and annual leave

Saying he’ll attend meetings and not turning up

At least 5 occasions where he claims to have emailed or messaged DH on Teams but ‘it didn’t send’

Never on time after already agreeing a later start time than everyone else in the team.

Every time DH has tried to address firmly HR have said they need to offer more support and it’s not reached the stage where they can let go.

They are now going to probably pay him 4-6 months pay which seems mad given he’s clearly not capable of the job.

It makes zero sense to me - if you work in HR can you explain this?

For context DH works for a university - I don’t know if that makes a difference.

I’d have been able to dismiss this person months ago if they worked for me.

Because it’s standard procedure it is a breach of confidentiality and your husband could get in serious trouble for sharing this information with you.

Fear of tribunals and fear of unions. Often it's just simpler and less risk to promote them out of the way or try to get something out of them.

Do you know what @Merryoldgoat? I think your bloke should be fired for breaching someone’s confidentiality like this. As for you, posting it on a public website - are you not ashamed of yourself?

The idea that DH should be fired for talking to his wife about the trouble he’s having at work is ridiculous.

His colleague’s behaviour is common knowledge among all staff there as it’s impossible to hide the goings on.

I’ve not read any of his notes, I don’t know any personal information (bar his name), and have no idea what HR have said - only that DH thinks they’re not taking a firm stance.

If you think I should be ashamed @BIossomtoes I respect that but I disagree.

Replies here also make it clear these behaviours are far from uncommon, I’ve changed enough to satisfied there is nothing identifiable.

I’m happy that my DH discussing his despair at not being able to make headway affecting his mental health so much is not unprofessional.

I think it's inappropriate too
Your husband shouldn't have done that.

I’ve already clarified he showed me the word doc length - I haven’t read it

You really aren’t getting this are you? You shouldn’t even know his name. It’s a complete breach of confidentiality and your husband should be fired for this. He shouldn’t even be showing you the word count. You should not know this persons name or the extent of the detail that you do.

That really isn't the point. You know his name and the alleged reasons he is underperforming. That is detail you shouldn't know.

Are you kidding? You don’t talk to your spouse about ‘billy’ and how he didn’t show up today?

We wanted to end someone’s employment during probation as it was clear she wasn’t able to do the job… then we discovered our hospital no longer does probation periods and it took us a year to get rid of her! She even admitted she wasn’t capable. We had to strip her job back to the minimum and lower grade colleagues were picking up the slack. She then told us she was trying to get an adhd assessment and we made reasonable adjustments (changed working hours and moved whole team meetings - she would still be late). She even asked for a big part of her role to be removed from her jd - imagine an accountant asking for maths to be removed (example similar but not exactly). Even that wasn’t enough and we had to do daily support meetings with full notes etc. She was a nice lady and should never have been hired - hired by director without consulting with managers and no skills test at interview 🙄

I have no answer, just sympathy.

He’s still told you or you wouldn’t have been able to go into the detail of your OP. It’s very unethical and unprofessional to discuss personnel matters with a family member. I’d ask MN to delete the thread if I were you.

In general it’s an information breach. In reality, in a loving relationship you’ll rant to your partner about the arsehole at work!

Inappropriate use of sick leave and annual leave - HR has to believe the employees reason for Theo absence (even if they know it’s bullshit) and surely annual leave is signed off by the persons manager. How are these being used inappropriately?

Lot of puffing up of feathers here

HR is what it is, some good, some not so good.

Friend in USA works for a huge HR company who are very efficient and knowledgeable. Many companies big and small use them rather than use in house employees. Which takes the sting out of personality upsets.

It once took me 6 months to get rid of a bloke who was openly racist and sexist towards his line manager, and had even been racist towards customers. He'd been at it for years but no-one had ever followed through with the documentation steps properly to be able to oust him.

I was in a regional role so supposed to be spreading my time across different offices, but ended up spending two days a week at that location to ensure that everything was done by the book.

We had nearly got rid of him and he came to the final meeting with his union rep who was very disappointed to see everything properly documented. His attempt at appeal failed when, in a recorded meeting, he said that his line manager fired him because she was jealous of white men because she was a P**i bitch. This was the private sector btw, although I guess we did at least get rid of him eventually.

I posted up thread but eg going AWOL for 2/3 days, not answering comms etc and then submitting a retrospective AL request.

I bet he works in marketing

No.

No good to you now but next time say this is your colleague, because now the thread is getting derailed to buggery.

And I agree with you that many people will absolutely discuss things with their partners even on jury service.

When you mentioned University, I immediately thought the Woke Brigade!
Universities appear to throw money at a problem rather than nip it in the bud. I believe so they can keep a good name and of course it’s not their money it’s the students.

I dont know but its bloody infuriating.

Haven’t Labour just brought in tougher regs over sacking - no probationary period now.

I have a friend who works in an organisation that’s public sector adjacent (vague as otherwise outing) and who manages a man who has barely worked since Covid. Takes months off at a time because his wife is ‘going through IVF’ and he needs to provide emotional support. HR deem fertility issues a sensitive topic so they don’t listen to my friend’s concerns that this man has done no work for 5 years. He times his sick leave, compassionate leave and annual leave like a military operation to get maximum time completely off. Then the rest of the time he ‘WFH’, logging in on an ad-hoc basis, every now and then going completely AWOL with one excuse or another.

I used to know a man who was a trained barrister working in the public sector (not sure if he worked as a barrister) whose entire job was sitting in on meetings and he claimed to only work a few hours a week on a FT contract.

Slightly different examples as one is taking the piss and the other is just getting away with doing nothing because you’ve slipped through the cracks. But there are definitely people who get away with doing next to no work, even in senior, professional roles.

I don't know about the person in your OP, but in regards to your title question, I can testify that- in my manager's case- it is because he is too expensive to get rid of, too hard to replace, he's been here so long that he is like Teflon (and even then, was moved sideways, much to the relief of his original department, and the probable horror of ours... people tend to leave very quickly because of him), and he has intimidated virtually everyone to the point that hardly anyone will stand up to him. Also, HR are not on this site (also education sector) and don't know him, but probably know of his reputation. I attempted to get rid of him for our sanity (it was his last chance) and he denied everything... yes, because I'd really sat there and made up everything he'd ever said and done to me and other team members. It was quite an eye-opener for his new manager.

Needless to say, we are scheming to get rid of him in all sorts of very creative ways.

I worked at a university for 10 years. Saw so much of this nonsense. Liberal, wishy washy managers coupled with an extremely woke HR department. Nightmare.