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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

People need to stop using mental illness as a get-out from abhorrent behaviour

71 replies

Never2many · 04/06/2025 09:56

it seems that more and more these days any behaviour goes as long as it’s in the name of mental illness.

Mother murders her children? Must have been mentally ill.
Someone shouts at their family? Must be mentally ill.
There’s a thread where a man disappeared without a trace since new year then casually showed up with a sun tan and all new clothes. “Must have had a breakdown.”

Why can’t we just accept that there are some really arsehole people out there?

Why are we writing off arsehole behaviour in the name of mental illness?

All you’re doing there is painting the mentally ill as arseholes, and as most of us know, those people who are genuinely mentally ill aren’t. But the more you write off these kinds of behaviours in the name of mental illness the more of a reputation you are giving the mentally ill.

And frankly, mental illness isn’t an excuse to behave like an arsehole, to murder your children or to piss off for six months without a trace or word to your children.

OP posts:
mumofoneAlonebutokay · 04/06/2025 11:50

The examples in your op differ wildly from eachother 😭

IveGotAnUnusuallyLargePelvisISwear · 04/06/2025 11:56

SomethingInnocuousForNow · 04/06/2025 11:49

Also, in the vast, vast majority of these cases they don't just walk out of court - instead of going to prison they go to a high secure psychiatric facility. They are usually subject to more restrictions there and end up staying longer than a sentence in prison would be.

As a strategy to avoid jail, it's a pretty stupid one.

Oh I totally agree. My ex was like “I’ll have to stay in one of them holiday camp psych hospitals for a couple of years then I’ll be out and you’d have been long forgotten”. He was and is a stupid cunt.

When people say things like “there’s no excuse to kill your kids” it makes me think of Andrea Yates who killed her 5 small children due to her untreated postpartum psychosis(?) She was someone who had devoted her life to her children by all accounts and because of her ignorant shithead husband not accepting his wife was ill did something she wouldn't have done had she been well.

SomethingInnocuousForNow · 04/06/2025 11:58

IveGotAnUnusuallyLargePelvisISwear · 04/06/2025 11:56

Oh I totally agree. My ex was like “I’ll have to stay in one of them holiday camp psych hospitals for a couple of years then I’ll be out and you’d have been long forgotten”. He was and is a stupid cunt.

When people say things like “there’s no excuse to kill your kids” it makes me think of Andrea Yates who killed her 5 small children due to her untreated postpartum psychosis(?) She was someone who had devoted her life to her children by all accounts and because of her ignorant shithead husband not accepting his wife was ill did something she wouldn't have done had she been well.

Agree.

Even the Victorians didn't usually punish women for postpartum psychosis.

Findingmypurposeinlife · 04/06/2025 12:02

If you have never experienced anyone having a psychotic episode then count yourself lucky.
It's incredibly hard to get someone the proper treatment. I personally had to escalate to the highest levels and repeatedly so, before anyone actually listened. Often it's too late by that time. Not everyone has the resources to do that, especially when already trying to deal with the person who suffers from the illness. And they have often tried to make their own attempts to get help and been ignored.
The system is failing.
I now plan to escalate retrospectively for all the damn failures. I want answers.

x2boys · 04/06/2025 12:09

IveGotAnUnusuallyLargePelvisISwear · 04/06/2025 11:56

Oh I totally agree. My ex was like “I’ll have to stay in one of them holiday camp psych hospitals for a couple of years then I’ll be out and you’d have been long forgotten”. He was and is a stupid cunt.

When people say things like “there’s no excuse to kill your kids” it makes me think of Andrea Yates who killed her 5 small children due to her untreated postpartum psychosis(?) She was someone who had devoted her life to her children by all accounts and because of her ignorant shithead husband not accepting his wife was ill did something she wouldn't have done had she been well.

Clearly he's never Been in a "Holiday camp psychiatric hospital "
As a student nurse a I had a placement in a medium secure hospital so a step down from Rampton etc
It was a horrible place very grim every door had to be unlocked to go through them and locked behind you patients had very little say in their treatment, to have any kind of leave even ground leave had to be applied for and approved by the Home Office
And people could be detained there for an indeterminate amount of time .

Conniebygaslight · 04/06/2025 12:17

I think we have pathologised normal (but very difficult nonetheless)emotions that are often brought on by modern life. Anxiety, stress, low mood overwhelm etc. are now categorised as mental illness which in my opinion they shouldn't be. I also think that we're encouraged to accept people and their differences and this can be misconstrued as accepting behaviours that should be challenged.
A bit like a man who leaves his wife for another man is often made to feel guilty if she doesn't show that she's supportive and understanding. I appreciate that's about sexuality and not MH but a similar reaction.

wastingtimeonhere · 04/06/2025 12:22

Obviously with high profile caes there will be more scrutiny. We all know mental health services are woefully underfunded, so trying to get help will be difficult, genuine or not.

My annoyance is reserved for colleagues claiming 'mental health' to avoid scrutiny over performance at work. A workshy layabout who games all night then can't get washed and to work on time or are remotely competent when you get to work are not suffering 'anxiety', just avoiding being an adult. and will still be living with your mum aged 45

Butchyrestingface · 04/06/2025 12:23

Copperlightning · 04/06/2025 10:16

Pupil attempts to murder teacher but he’s not very bright and has ADHD so walks free. Teacher will never work again

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgq0jw0eqzo

It IS Scotland though (I'm Scottish). Scottish sentencing is in a league of its own these days.

We should just be thankful he wasn't given a two week, all-expenses paid trip to Center Parcs and the teacher sent for reprogramming.

askmenow · 04/06/2025 12:33

feelingbleh · 04/06/2025 10:29

I think anyone who commits murder is mentally unwell it's not exactly normal behaviour

Anyone who is conclusively proven to have committed murder should imo be wired to the mains and dispatched forthwith!

No if's, buts, why or wherefores!

No way should we be spending public funds on keeping murderers in prison.

x2boys · 04/06/2025 12:40

askmenow · 04/06/2025 12:33

Anyone who is conclusively proven to have committed murder should imo be wired to the mains and dispatched forthwith!

No if's, buts, why or wherefores!

No way should we be spending public funds on keeping murderers in prison.

There is no capital punishment in this country so this is a pointless argument.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/06/2025 12:42

Sometimeinadifferentworld · 04/06/2025 10:18

I think the crux of the issue is people trying to use mental illness as a get out for outrageously awful behaviour when they are not mentally ill at all.

I do think people suffering from mental illness or personality disorders can commit awful crimes/ behave really badly and truly don't have the capacity to behave in a morally or criminally responsible way.

The problem is distinguishing between those genuinely ill and those who aren't.

Exactly this

Of course most understand that, very sadly, there are some who genuinely aren't fully able to control their actions, but in an age where taking personal responsibility is increasingly unwelcome, an alleged condition which is difficult to prove either way can be very appealing

See also the absolute explosion in self-diagnosed ADHD, ODD, PDA and the rest ... complex and challenging conditions for actual sufferers without doubt, but also an all too handy label for too many

IberianBlackout · 04/06/2025 12:48

I’m with you 50/50. You can’t put murdering your family and shouting at your family in the same basket, that’s ridiculous. Sometimes it’s mental illness, sometimes it isn’t.

I do think people pull out the MI card far too often online, but that doesn’t apply to really serious situations like where there’s multiple staff reviewing the case.

Viviennemary · 04/06/2025 12:56

Butchyrestingface · 04/06/2025 12:23

It IS Scotland though (I'm Scottish). Scottish sentencing is in a league of its own these days.

We should just be thankful he wasn't given a two week, all-expenses paid trip to Center Parcs and the teacher sent for reprogramming.

I'd not heard of this case. Amazing this violent thug got away with it. Unbelievable. And they wonder why it's getting harder to recruit teachers.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/06/2025 12:56

Thing is, human psychology is extremely complex. We've barely scratched the surface of how our brains work, and society is moving so fast now that analysing the impact of all facets of modern life in real time is almost impossible.

I would argue that people who continuous do harm that impacts themselves and other people are mentally unwell / unstable.

When someone does harm to you or your loved ones, in the vast majority of cases, despite the profound distress and hurt you experience as a victim, you generally don't retaliate in kind because ultimately you give a shit about the long term consequences. People who continually behave in a shitty manner are lacking the capacity in some way to exercise self control. Maybe it's "faulty wiring" or chemical imbalance or an unknown brain injury. It doesn't excuse what they've done, but it could be a reason.

Psychosis, psychopathy, sociopathy are all diagnoses applied to people who behave outside of what society deems as "normal".

The examples in the OP could fall into any of these categories.

I don't deny that some people will never respond to treatment or rehabilitation so for the good of society and to prevent ongoing harm, they need to face consequences such as deprivation of liberty.

I also believe that people need better support to safeguard their mental well-being from as early an age as possible.

The backgrounds of some heinous criminals can be analysed and certain things crop up again and again, alot of which is influenced by environment and generational cycles.

The complaints that "normal" emotions are pathologized and leveraged inappropriately as excuses for poor behaviour in more mundane settings is somewhat valid, however, this has coincided with the explosion of the Internet and social media, something else that needs to be explored. There is a constant feed that if you just do this that or the other, you'll be happy and successful, then the message that if it's not working for you, you're just not trying hard enough, and from there, there must be something fundamentally wrong with you. It ignores all the external influences that might explain why you can't just magic up a perfect life by being "resilient" and "determined".

Then we have the whole emphasis on personal responsibility and aforementioned resilience, and the withdrawal from real world community, atomisation if family etc etc, and all of this can breed insecurity and cimognitive dissonance.

It's a fascinating and complex subject, and some are interested in it, others scoff at "excessive naval gazing" - such idms the paradoxical nature of modern life.

One thing that I do see though, is that society is often only a whisker away from mob and pitchfork mentality, which is worrying. Marginalising and stereotyping people breeds suspicion and resentment, and thus we have self-fulfilling prophecies in the making.

I'll take a period of excessive navel gazing followed by a more informed middle ground over the alternative any day. After all, there is no cast iron guarantee that any one of us may succumb to serious mental illness for a myriad if reasons. And when it's you, I guarantee that you'll appreciate any crumb of understanding or mitigation in your defence.

SomethingInnocuousForNow · 04/06/2025 12:59

In the legal system at least, absolutely no one has got away with anything for low support needs autism or ADHD. It might be considered as a contributing factor, but the bar for proving lack of capacity is extremely high.

Most people in prison are either neurodivergent or have a mental illness. They're still in prison. Having visited a prison for work, some people are in prison who should not be - they are acutely mentally unwell and pretty much have no idea what is going on, or have a learning disability so severe it seems unlikely they had capacity.

Thepeopleversuswork · 04/06/2025 13:03

As PPs have said this is a bit of a simplistic and goady post which overlooks the massive problems people with genuine mental health problems have in obtaining diagnosis and treatment.

But there's a grain of truth in what the OP says in that people are often very quick to deflect or justify pisspoor behaviour by saying "could s/he have a mental health problem?"

I've lost count of the number of threads I've been on where an OP will complain that her husband has been AWOL for four days/has shouted at her in front of her family/has walked out of his job with no warning" etc. And a conveyor belt of people will pipe up with: "could he be neurodiverse/depressed/suffering from anxiety?"

Yes he may well be depressed or suffering from anxiety but that doesn't excuse gratuitously awful behaviour. If someone behaves that badly they've lost the right to have consideration for whatever underlying MH issue they may be having.

Shitmonger · 04/06/2025 13:21

Copperlightning · 04/06/2025 10:16

Pupil attempts to murder teacher but he’s not very bright and has ADHD so walks free. Teacher will never work again

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgq0jw0eqzo

This one is shocking. Absolute negligence to not only diagnose a boy with an IQ of 47-59 with ADHD, but to medicate him for it! Giving stimulant medication to a strong young man with an intellectual disability who struggles with emotional control is criminal.

Judiezones · 04/06/2025 13:33

MmeChoufleur · 04/06/2025 10:41

And frankly, mental illness isn’t an excuse to behave like an arsehole, to murder your children or to piss off for six months without a trace or word to your children.

Which bit did I misunderstand? Of course there are arseholes who will blame MH, but there are other cases where mental illness genuinely is the reason that someone has murdered a child or disappeared.

Op doesn't say otherwise. I think you just jumped to the wrong conclusion

BobbyBiscuits · 04/06/2025 13:39

Well, I would assume someone could well be suffering from psychosis if they randomly started trying to impulsively hurt others or themselves. It's more common to do such things if your mentally ill than if your not, surely?!

I've witnessed people nearly killing themselves in psychosis even though they weren't suicidal.

So mental illness does often make people do dangerous, reckless or disturbing things.
It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Partly at least.

HRTQueen · 04/06/2025 13:40

Never2many · 04/06/2025 09:56

it seems that more and more these days any behaviour goes as long as it’s in the name of mental illness.

Mother murders her children? Must have been mentally ill.
Someone shouts at their family? Must be mentally ill.
There’s a thread where a man disappeared without a trace since new year then casually showed up with a sun tan and all new clothes. “Must have had a breakdown.”

Why can’t we just accept that there are some really arsehole people out there?

Why are we writing off arsehole behaviour in the name of mental illness?

All you’re doing there is painting the mentally ill as arseholes, and as most of us know, those people who are genuinely mentally ill aren’t. But the more you write off these kinds of behaviours in the name of mental illness the more of a reputation you are giving the mentally ill.

And frankly, mental illness isn’t an excuse to behave like an arsehole, to murder your children or to piss off for six months without a trace or word to your children.

how someone is treated within the law is different if they are mentally ill (and their sentence shall be) as it should be

people claiming that because of their mental illness that are not guilty of a crime and they are not found to be mentally unwell at the time will not bypass a group of professionals who shall very strictly assess them (or maybe on the very rare occasion)

and it is certainly not a get out if someone is found to have been mentally unwell when they have committed an offence often they are in hospital longer than they would had served a prison sentence and heavier monitoring once they leave hospital

LandOfFruitAndNut · 04/06/2025 14:02

Mental illness isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ concept. Left untreated, some forms of mental illness, can have devastating consequences on an individual and society. If someone is truly psychotic they should be properly cared for by society.
Mental illness is not an excuse but it can be an explanation. Sending a truly mentally ill person to prison for their crime is completely inappropriate.

XenoBitch · 04/06/2025 14:39

It is never an excuse, but can be a reason. No mentally well mother murders her children. Post Partum Psychosis is a thing.
I remember reading about a mum who killed her SEN child as she had psychosis from lack of sleep (due to no respite, and she was crying out for help that never came).
Those are extreme, but mental illness can make people lash out or act irrational too. I have been there and got the hospital issued T-shirt.

MmeChoufleur · 04/06/2025 15:08

Judiezones · 04/06/2025 13:33

Op doesn't say otherwise. I think you just jumped to the wrong conclusion

I literally quoted the OP’s own words (in bold). I think that it’s you who has misunderstood.

MaloryJones · 04/06/2025 15:28

XenoBitch · 04/06/2025 14:39

It is never an excuse, but can be a reason. No mentally well mother murders her children. Post Partum Psychosis is a thing.
I remember reading about a mum who killed her SEN child as she had psychosis from lack of sleep (due to no respite, and she was crying out for help that never came).
Those are extreme, but mental illness can make people lash out or act irrational too. I have been there and got the hospital issued T-shirt.

I had PND but not the more serious Post Partum Psychosis, Thankfully.

I could never understand (before my PND) how a Mother could do such things as murder their baby.. However, during or after the PND I remember seeing something on the news of a Mum who had smothered her baby and I felt nothing but Pity for Her.
I reasoned it, at the time (1993) that one day she would be better but she will suffer her own Life Sentence.
It changed how I saw things like that I think I am trying to say and, needless to say, I agree with You.

NanCydrewandtheclueinthename · 04/06/2025 15:29

Tbf people ask could they have mental illness, be nd etc on here when they are given details of very unusual behaviour and are trying to suggest a possible explanation, not because they are eager to defend the person.
That thread about the husband returning home after six months is a terrible example mainly because it was overwhelmingly obvious that it was complete bollocks.

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