AIBU to think it isn't fair for school to ban skirts and dresses

[helloall987]

My kids attend an all through school they start at 4 in reception and it goes up to 18. There is a primary and a secondary site.

From September they have changed their uniform to trousers and shorts so no school dresses, skirts or pinafores allowed. All children boys and girls to wear black trousers or shorts. No school shoes either just black trainers. The two reasons they cite are modesty and a gender neutral approach so there is no distinction between girls and boys. This is for primary and secondary school pupils. My DD loves wearing pinafores and patent school shoes. I just think think that with this policy the idea of "feminity" is being taken away.

Most parents think it is a great idea but there are a few of us who want to contest it.

A long time! 20 years

I doubt very much that schools are forcing girls to wear skirts- which makes forcing those who choose to do so to wear trousers unfair and unjustifiable.

Skirt dresses should be allowed til year 6. After that I agree with the ban bc of girls wearing their skirts so high up that it’s barely covering their arse. It’s embarrassing and I get shocked that they are getting away with dressing like that, surely there’s the hygiene aspect of it too.

It's just something really pathetic to get worked up about imo. I'm imagining a bunch of girls with placards "let me wear a skirt" 🙄 the education system is completely fucked, kids are getting dumber each year. There are so many actual important issues to focus time and energy on. I'm more concerned about class sizes and the quality of the teachers than what students are wearing 😒

We are all concerned about the quality of the education our children are receiving that's probably why they are changing the uniform too much wasted time policing skirts etc

I agree with this. my dd would have hated it in ks1, though I guess she’d just have to have got on with it. But for secondary I totally get it. I love a short skirt and did it as a teen too, but my bum was properly covered - the skirts with literal bums on show has become ubiquitous and really is cringeworthy for all concerned.

No issue with the trainers either. Saves spending out on multiple pairs that have to be a certain way.

The problem is most MNers don't have any experience of non-uniform schools and take events such as non-uniform days to be a example of how it would work. Non uniform days are a different animal!
But what happens when no uniform is every day is the girls just end up wearing Jeans, trousers or leggings. The whole bullying for not having the right clothes was never really an issue, buying uniform isn't cheap, so being able to have the same clothes for home and school was a bonus.

No uniform secondary school that we've been at has ever allowed boots, this used to make me so cross. Even in winter walking in snow, they weren't allowed, changing once at school wasn't allowed either. DS's last school doesn't even allow coats on site, they have to walk in blazers or stuff their coats in their bags at the gate, whatever the weather.

I think broadly this is a good idea,little girls who wear dresses 👗 can wear them out of school surely. As a child my school in London was non uniform at primary level.oldet girls who roll their skirts up will have warmer bottoms,! Is it a good school ,and is she happy there? Most jobs allow trousers now.i remember when Nurses won the battle to have a tunic and slacks,instead of a cotton dress that was impractical. They would hurt their backs ,trying to bend without losing their modesty

Isn't it great they have the choice of a tunic & trousers (or scrubs now) and a dress now?

buying uniform isn't cheap

It is certainly at primary, schools cannot legally stipulate it must be branded- can get a years worth of uniform in any of the big supermarkets for a decent price.

School Isnt a place to express femininity and countless studies have shown that when girls are made aware of their sex / femininity then they perform less well than if they are treated gender neutral

and it saves the questions of what girls should wear to do cartwheels in the playground and avoids the flash my bum teenager problem

School uniform actually harms discipline.
it is really difficult to enforce for reasons previously mentioned. It gives kids something to push back on and they do. They know they are breaking a school rule by rolling their skirts up or undoing the top button etc and teachers- like me- have too much other stuff to deal with to try and get kids to unroll their skirts since you can bet some parent will kick off about rights etc. The consequence of all this is that kids know you can break certain rules.
Uniform is not a leveller! Unless you go North Korea style, kids will always find a way to separate others. Wrong pencil case, wrong lunch box, wrong hair style, wrong glasses, wrong shoes, wrong bag - even what kind of water bottle they have. They can also get bullied for how they wear the uniform.
The fact is the UK is one of only a handful of countries with uniform. The countries with best educational outcomes don’t have it. I’d scrap it tomorrow if I could.

Girls and women have every right to express their femininity anywhere they choose. Why should girls or women change their appearance, shouldn’t the emphasis be on the judgmental people treating them differently and their discriminatory behaviour being addressed? I’ve certainly never felt I was treated negatively by anyone for wearing dresses/skirts/make up/generally looking very feminine, whether at school, university or work. If I was, then that’s their problem- I’m not changing!

I work in a very lovely, very safe girls' school. A change to trousers-only, if it were suggested (which it never has been AFAIK), would be motivated not by fear of victimhood, but by a desire to reduce uniform infractions (i.e. excessive rolling up of skirts). I suspect it would be similar in other schools.

Uniforms supposed to be uniform?

I don't think there is a single argument I can think of that justifies girls wearing skirts or dresses to school. Same as none for women to wear to work. Some may argue that it is personal choice...but really, a school uniform is the opposite of personal choice. In schools where there is no uniform, girls don't tend to wear skirts or dresses at all.

Contest it.
All girls and boys who like shorts and pants can wear them anyway.

All children should be allowed to wear a skirt if they please.
Offering no hardy leather shoes as an option is a disgrace.

Teens don't make these choices in a vacuum

When teen girls wear v v short skirts, they're not doing so because they're empowered. It's because they've been socially conditioned to wear revealing clothes to satisfy the male gaze. I'd be delighted if they were discouraged from doing that

By & large girls & teens outside of school wear trousers/leggings/jeans.

It is very much worth asking the question as to why the moment they put on uniform it has to be a skirt & it has to be as short as possible - but the moment they start college that stops. Why?

We bloody well know why - school uniform with a skirt is a fetish, it's been grossly sexualised & has been for decades. I remember years ago there was a huge public debate about uniforms & trying to search Twitter (when it was normal & useful) for news & opinions about it was impossible cos every search is just resulted in majority porn.

Young teens have absorbed that mentality & even more so now with anime/manga/hentai being completely normal & ubiquitous amoung teens in a way it never has before.

This is on top of antiquated ideas of being feminine & delicate & ladylike, which were already harmful.

Yes it's uncomfortable to think about, no it's not a nice thing to come to terms with & if we are truly truly honest it's a damn good reason to do away with skirts as uniforms.

We bloody well know why - school uniform with a skirt is a fetish, it's been grossly sexualised & has been for decades.

Yes.

schools are not the place for expressing femininity - they are a place for learning. Although trousers can be feminine or masculine.

its a uniform.

and they have to wear clothes as part of that uniform - why? I mean it is often hot

Is that because nakedness isn’t acceptable? Surely that should be ok? Or is an element of modesty and respect for others actually ok? As long as it doesn’t involve the length and tightness of a school skirt whereupon modesty and respect become dirty words ?

I agree with this.

All teens are different and I wouldn't argue a utilitarian approach is the answer- I don't think it would magically remove the focus from the clothes to the classroom! Some teenagers, I was one as is my daughter and my DS, care what their clothes say about them, it's usually very tribal and it corresponds to music taste, cultural preferences, politics even etc. There are pupils who don't align themselves with any of this behaviour and would happily wear the trousers as stipulated by the school rules and 💯 focus on their studies and that is all that is important to them but those children I would argue are pretty rare and tbh, are the type to comply with any rules the school stipulate.

My DD loves fashion, has a sewing machine and likes nothing more than visiting charity shops and adapting clothes to her taste, she is joined by her friends in this interest; she is definitely not intellectually inferior to those that have no interest. My eldest is about to leave sixth form and is predicted the highest grades, he does care about the clothes he wears but it has no bearing on his work whatsoever, it's more a tribal thing again. In that sense sixth form college has the right approach, you just don't see all this extreme dressing mostly baggy jeans, baggy tracksuit trousers and hoodies.

I agree. To often equality and gender neutrality actually reinforce the idea that the default human state is male and this is what all females should aspire to.

I have photos from the 1850s, of great (not sure how many times) grand relatives and the boys are in dresses until around 7 to 8 years old. Then they went into breeches. It was more practical apparently. It went out of fashion to do this though. But you get the odd picture of boys in dresses until 2 -3 even in the early 1930s

Anyway, not really relevant but it's interesting how things change.

I have some sympathy for schools having to deal with girls who roll up skirts or where they are too short to begin with. Sitting awkwardly in some instances, spending time adjusting their skirt, instead of concentrating on lessons.

I am however of the opinion that the choice of skirts, dresses or trousers should be available, and uniform to a minimum on the grounds of cost.

Most are just rebelling, the others are taunted for not following suit, so they do it too. If the uniform was skirts that show your arse cheeks. Then they'd all be wearing skirts down to their ankles.