To ask for solidarity - and positive stories (parenting PDA)

[seriouslynonames]

I know others have it worse than us for a whole range of reasons. But I am still really struggling with the mindset shift needed to successfully support a child with PDA. She doesn't even has an ASD diagnosis so we don't have it on paper that she is PDA. She has a diagnosis of ADHD but that doesn't feel like the full picture. She fits the description of PDA, particularly strongly the pervasive drive for autonomy. Typical ADHD strategies don't work, neither do typical ASD strategies. Only PDA strategies do. But it's so hard to consistently implement them when it can feel like you are handing all control to a 9 year old.
I know how I should respond to her when she is escalating or equalising but in the moment I can only manage it some of the time and the rest of the time I get drawn into some kind of ridiculous discussion or argument that no-one comes out of as the winner. My husband is the same - sometimes does or says exactly the right thing but just as often gets drawn in. It feels non stop and is exhausting. Once things are calm again I tell myself we can do this. Then it all goes to s* again.
Can others relate? Has anyone found success with being really consistent with PDA strategies and being that safe nervous system? I feel like my nervous system is just as jumpy and sensitive as hers so it's hard to always be that calm safe person she needs.
Sorry if this just seems like a rant or a bit rambling, it's been a hard weekend and we have some harder times coming as I need major surgery in a few weeks. I don't know how I will recover safely with some of the challenges we experience with her 😬🥴. Keeping my fingers crossed for better days and weeks ahead!

Listen to this.

open.spotify.com/episode/31Un2gs7D3VQsPkuCawHBa?si=y1IgOQXQR1e7wdgvJqHBGw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A1qOIjv6uHeLnaWWA2kgIbJ

Thanks, will have a listen x

Solidarity here but no positive stories. I have felt for years that my DD has PDA. But after a particularly draining and upsetting weekend I am sat here right now thinking maybe I am wrong and she is just not very nice/spoilt, which is a horrible feeling.

It's a massive learning curve for you. Understandable that sometimes you forget and get drawn in.

Even 7 years down the line with a teen PDA -er I still do occasionally.

It's okay to falter. You are human. When you do, reset and start again.

PDA strategies go against everything we believe about parenting. But it works for our children.

My son is so vastly different to when he was little. He now even does the dishwasher and sorts his own clothes! Gets himself sorted for school. And I can ask him to help with other things too.

You're doing a great job.

@ShaunaSadeki sorry you are also having a hard time of it, I know the feeling you describe. I guess we just have to keep going and trying our best
@No3392 thank you for the hope, I am so pleased to hear things have changed for the better. I hope your son continues to thrive, hopefully we will be in a similar position in time!

My daughter isn't PDA but she is autistic so I hope this is ok to post. I work in PDA provision though, so please know I get it!

I just thought it might be helpful to hear that I grew up watching Supernanny with my mum. When I was pregnant, I thought I knew exactly how to parent, I knew how to use the naughty step, how to get them to sleep through the night well etc. etc. Then my amazing daughter came along and thoroughly taught me that those neurotypical strategies don't work. I kept trying to implement them thinking I just need to persist longer etc. Nope! We then looked into ND friendly strategies and we now have the best behaved daughter ever.

My point is, it is absolutely fine to hand more control to your child if that is what works for her. There is no need to hold all control because that's what you've seen elsewhere as the norm.

With regards to when you say you get drawn I to arguments. In my professional experience I've usually found the old agree and divert to be the best de-escalation strategy. Obviously not in some cases, but like the example below:

Child: I hate you
Me: I get that. Sometimes I hate me too. Most people feel like they hate themselves or someone around them at some point. Anyway, would you prefer pasta or pizza for dinner?

Just completely removes the conflict by you not arguing back and just moving on.

Hope that reassures a little, I k ow it's tough but hang in there!!

Signing in with solidarity. All 4 of my DC are autistic but DC3 is also ADHD with a demand avoidant profile. His secondary school placement has broken down and we're trying to get EOTIS in place.

DC3 is just so strategic and aware, I don't really know how to properly describe it. But it just always feels like he's 10 steps ahead of me.

He has many brilliant qualities but he's very explosive

It's really hard I think. DC has an ASD diagnosis and the persuasive desire for autonomy is something I really recognise in them - I use a lot of low demand strategies but obviously still find myself getting frustrated at times and stuck in silly arguments. Usually when I have been doing lots of the parenting and care giving and am exhausted myself. I have had some recent success with the problem solving approach where they have to suggest a solution(s) to a problem which is the first time that has properly worked but it's been great.

DC3 has got into writing contracts, it's entirely when he wants something though.

Thank you @Mandylovescandy @PennywisePoundFoolish @YellowSubmarine994 it's good to hear from others!
Agree and divert can work yes, and I am ok with handing control over most things. I am trying to get her on board with using the problem solving approach (Ross Greene?) but she's not really up for that yet. The real sticking points (with the worst explosions) can be when it's time to stop watching TV on the iPad or to stop playing a game on the iPad (she watches a lot of TV but is rarely allowed to play games as it's so difficult). It doesn't matter what we have agreed in advance she just can't stop when it's time, or 5 or 10 mins later. Or when the episode ends. She just can't stop watching. The other time we have problems is when she wants to buy something or do something and I have to say no (because she has loads of the same thing already or there is literally no space in her room or it's really just a piece of plastic junk or because it's Sunday night and shops are shut or because we can't start at art and craft project at 9pm or because it's something that's just never going to happen) and no matter how I phrase it, how I explain and how reasonable my answer is, if it's not 'yes you can do that right now', even if my answer is yes but in an hour or yes tomorrow, it's the end of the world and she starts lashing out.
The third thing that really triggers her is her older sister - literally just her existence. She feels a constant need to equalise against her even when her sister is doing absolutely nothing that could annoy her. I think just the fact she is older feels like a loss of autonomy to DD9.
So any advice on how to either get her to engage in problem solving or how to say no without actually saying no or how to get her to comply with what she has agreed to would be great! I don't think I will ever win on the dopamine seeking shopping habits but that why we have a house full of plastic tat and soft toys!!
Thanks for listening 😁

What you have just written here is exactly how my DS is. He’s only just turned 7. When he started school they put him on the Sen register due to his outbursts at school and said he was having trouble regulating his emotions and that it would hopefully just be a phase. He has got better and his outbursts at school are a lot better than what they were. But at home his behaviour is just so difficult. I feel I’m walking on eggshells and terrified I say the wrong thing to set him off. If he wants something he wants it there and then. You can’t reason with him. And just like you, even if I say yes but it will have to be later/tomorrow he just flies off the handle. He gets extremely frustrated when things don’t go to plan. He plays football and because he didn’t get the ball very much he was crying on the pitch, went in a massive strop and when asked to come off he refused. I was so embarrassed. He hasn’t been diagnosed with anything. I don’t know if I’ve got a spoilt brat or if there is more to it. I’m trying to reach out for help but it’s like no one cares.

@KelmenaBallerina sorry to hear you are struggling too, and not getting any help with it. Do school think he needs assessing for anything? Even an OT or ed psych assessment as a starter?
Read up on everything you can, see what you think might fit best, talk to your GP about right to choose if you think an assessment for something is necessary (unless school think he needs referring and are willing to help).
Our daughter has always been 'fine' at school but we see it all at home, which has made it very difficult to engage school in helping in any way.
Have a look at ADHD resources online, and ASD and PDA, to see if you think anything fits. It might be a phase or something sensory or a specific learning difficulty which is frustrating him. So many things it could be, it's hard to know where to start. Our first port of call was GP but as NHS lists were so long to get any kind of help or advice he suggested we find a psychologist privately so that was out starting point - asking for help to see what might be at the root of her behaviour (I suspected it was fear/anxiety) and ask how we could support her better to manage emotions and reduce dysregulation.
Don't assume spoilt brat, assume his behaviour is communication rather than goal oriented. Try Ross Greene's the explosive child if you haven't already. Good luck x

Just wanted to message with solidarity. My DS is now 11, but after many years of not understanding his meltdowns and behaviour, 'discovering' PDA has been a bit of a light-bulb moment. However we have no diagnosis yet (other than for dyslexia), but i am going to explore this with the GP soon (when i can actually get hold of them and make an appointment!). I've seen 'right to choose' suggested as a way of getting a diagnosis sooner -maybe worth looking into?

I sympathise with the screens - our DS was/is the same - incredibly hard to get him off them, even when he has agreed to stop in 10 mins or whatever. He is a bit better now. I have relaxed my expectations, try to ensure i ask him to finish the bit of the game he is on, and maybe comment on what he is doing and show an interest, then stand by him so i can remind him when the game ends, and have a clear reason for stopping - dinner time or whatever - ideally something vaguely pleasureable or fun, but at bedtime this is always hard! DS Also has a huge (ever growing) collection of cuddly toys!

I definitely struggle with the need to be low-demand all the time (and do fail sometimes!), and DH struggles with it even more, but has realised that pushing compliance gets us nowhere other than angry meltdowns! I can't bring myself to have no limits on screen time - doesn't sit right, but we are currently very relaxed about it, partly as DS is not able to cope with school at the moment and I need to work (from home) for some of the day! It all feels like such a constant learning curve! The PDA techniques do seem to work though, if you can train yourself to implement them and stop listening to that inner voice saying you should be telling your child to 'do something'.

My child is like this. I joke it's as though she read "Getting to Yes" in the womb.

It's exhausting.

DH and I are husks!

My DS is 11 and your description of your child is very like him.

It does get better. It's takes a long time and consistency of using PDA strategies. We use humour a lot, changing the subject and for a while he had to 'win' everything. Over time we have been able reinforce boundaries. We started with ones on safety then slowly, very slowly introduced other boundaries.

With screen time we use timers on Google home, tablet timers and visual sand timers. Having something else saying it's up and not you seems to help us. He doesn't seem as angry.

We give loads of notice of new things. The next big thing is the move to secondary. Been prepping for months already. But equally he can throw a curve ball in and react at the tiniest of things.

Always start each day as a fresh start. That really helped us.

And if you are able to, see if you can get some time for you. I think that really helped get through the rest of the week.
Equally make sure your partner as the same time.

I totally agree about time for yourself. My time for myself is at the gym and, quite sadly, work and work trips away. The gym is an excellent stress buster and at work everyone is nice to me and respects me and doesn’t argue with me or treat me like I am a total arsehole.

Thanks all. It's good to know we're not alone. You're right about time away. I do get time alone in the day as I am currently unable to work, but I spend most of that time doing house stuff, family admin, food shopping, cooking etc. Most of which aren't things that bring me joy! So I think I need to set aside time each week for the joyful as well as the necessary/practical. I do appreciate that it's time without the children nonetheless. DH works full time so he needs his downtime in the evening which I find difficult as evenings are the worst times. But if he didn't take that time in the evenings he wouldn't get any free time. So I have to take that hit (literally sometimes!) and it's only fair.

I am slightly dreading the move to secondary @VanWeezer so I feel for you with it coming up! No idea where we will be at that point so try not to dwell.
Using timers amd Alexa etc to stop TV or games etc doesn't usually go well with our DD unfortunately. we have tried about 5 different timers but after the novelty wears off, a week at most, things revert back to the instant anger.

You are right, each day is a fresh start. Right now she is angry because she's not allowed chocolate or sweets at 7.30pm.i know I'm not being unreasonable on that point, but apparently she doesn't 🙄. I am staying calm and holding the boundary gently, in the hope that things will eventually improve 🤞

Hi all, sending support to all living with pda, I just wanted to pop on quickly and let you k ow about an app I’ve just been recommended, it’s called pda pro (and orange square) and you type in what you want to ask your pda person and it offers suggestions of other ways to phrase it without demands,

we are managing much better now I’ve taken away almost all demands from him, but we are still dealing with school refusal and food avoidance. It’s a tough tough way to live

Thanks @ginton I haven't heard of the app, will take a look.
Both me and my husband are ill today so it has been a struggle to get her to do anything other than watch TV as we are trying to keep her and other DD well so keeping our distance.
Good to hear things are better, I hope you can make progress on food avoidance. School is a tough one, it just doesn't seem to suit some kids at all, especially PDA kids

Another crappy week of failing at parenting. Every. Single. Evening. It's groundhog day. She turns into a different (not very nice) person the minute it's time to stop doing fun things and start getting ready for bed. I can't take much more. I just want to go to bed myself. DH is helping her tonight, it's usually me. I was the target tonight so am keeping a low profile now. I am having surgery very soon and I don't know what to do as I can't be hit and kicked while recovering or I will end up back in hospital.

Sorry, just venting (and rambling!)

Sorry it’s tricky. I know some people have success with PDA strategies but I have also read stuff that says that it’s mainly a form of anxiety and that if you remove all demands then it may make kids mildly easier to deal with in the short term but long term it doesn’t deal with the anxiety. I have decided to go the other way, when my daughter says she hates me I tell her that’s not a nice thing to say. I feel like allowing her to speak to me like that gives a false impression of how the world works - there are usually natural consequences to speaking to people like that - and it also models self respect and healthy boundaries. Sorry this is probably not helpful but sending solidarity.

Thanks @LemonyPicket.
I have flip flopped between telling her I love her in response to 'i hate you', to explaining that it's not a nice thing to say, to ignoring, to almost saying it back to her (I have just restrained myself from that!). I have explained in calm times that she just can't keep hitting and kicking me, that it's not ok. She agrees it's not ok. Then she does it again as soon as she feels threatened/loses autonomy. I get that there is anxiety underlying most of what she expresses, but when it's nervous system activation rather than the kind of anxiety she experienced early in 2024 (which was hard to deal with but I understood what was going on and she expressed it more like fear not anger) it's so hard for her to even know what's happening or articulate why she is suddenly feeling so angry... Urgh, just exhausting and frustrating in equal measure! Hope things are going well with your daughter x

I have been reading a book "Who's in Charge?" that a Mumsnetter recommended and apparently he (the author) says/said to his son "You hate me? I must be doing my job properly then." He said his son found this irritating 😂.

Being a parent is no picnic.

Thanks @Needlenardlenoo I will take a look at the book. I have lots of half ready books already, most of which sound good in theory, it's putting it all into practice that can be so hard!! I'm not sure irritating her is the way forward though, as that usually just escalates things.. if I can break the tension with humour or a distraction that sometimes helps.