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Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

1000 replies

PurpleFairyLights · 17/05/2025 22:13

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

OP posts:
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thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 12:54

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:37

Also @needsmoresleep not all doctors were working on covid. And not all members of the public were furloughed. I certainly wasn't; DH wasn't and the staff at the supermarkets weren't. Neither were those staff dropping like flies. Covid was not the plague and there was a plethora or Health Department misinformation and misrepresentation.

Member of my family continued to work throughout 2020 in the local hospital and contrary to media reports of burned out staff and bed shortages, the local hospital was at least half empty and some staff weren't even bothering to turn up for work. After the predicted patient deluge failed to materialise ("2 weeks behind Italy"), hospital staff started to question what was going on.....of course all of this was never and has never been reported. Someone I knew who had breast cancer was told by the hospital don't worry, you'll still get your treatment - they cancelled her treatment and she died a few months later.

thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 13:01

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:44

I have been twice to our local A&E. On both occasions I have heard staff nurses and admin staff literally shouting at patients and families and fkr no good reason that I can determine (and an ambulance crew). It is very ugly. Don't get me started on the orthopaedic outpatient clinic. Awful, just awful. Some very rude and terse surgeons there. I have not seen patients being anything like as rude.

Yep. I've had to use local primary care over the last year and the rudeness Ive experienced is something I have yet to encounter in any other context. Its like they are untouchable. We're made to feel like a nuisance. Patients are generally quiet and deferential from my experience.

MissAnthr0pe · 18/05/2025 13:02

This reply has been deleted

Duplicate post has been removed

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:06

thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 13:01

Yep. I've had to use local primary care over the last year and the rudeness Ive experienced is something I have yet to encounter in any other context. Its like they are untouchable. We're made to feel like a nuisance. Patients are generally quiet and deferential from my experience.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately from your posts you come across as quite patronising so could that be the reason you have these difficulties and why you seem to dislike doctors?

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oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 13:07

@PurpleFairyLights I can't see what I have said to make you say I want this thread to be all about me? You know nothing about me, but I promise I am not and never have been a junior doctor and neither have any of my children. If you quote me in a post then I am entitled to think that post is directed at me.
Trying to have a rational discussion with you is, I'm afraid, like dealing with a talking budgie or the speaking clock.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Duplicate post has been removed

There needs to be a middle ground. Uk graduates have priority but IMGs guaranteed a visa even if outside UK if filling vacant posts.

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MissAnthr0pe · 18/05/2025 13:08

throwawaynametoday · 18/05/2025 10:33

Thank you for the detailed explaination. I am not a HCP and so a lot of the detail is lost on me but if I understand you correctly, the primary driver for for opening up recruitment to IMGs was due to a shortage of UK trained applicants at the time.

Surely a simple solution to this would be a two stage process which prioritises UK candidates, but then enables applications to be widened to IMGs without unnecessary red tape IF the post cannot be filled at the first stage? Given what is being said about roles attracting 1000s of applications within hours, it doesn't sound like this would significantly lengthen the time frame from advertising a position to filling it.

I'm not the poster you asked the question to but can answer it (NHS consultant involved in postgrad education). That was exactly what happened when training programmes were subject to the resident labour market test. However the way the recruitment windows work meant it was very tricky for an IMG to rely on this unless they were already in the UK on a dependent or similar visa. So said IMGs started looking elsewhere (Australia, Canada etc) and those training posts went unfilled.

Ps - duplicate post above deleted

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:09

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 13:07

@PurpleFairyLights I can't see what I have said to make you say I want this thread to be all about me? You know nothing about me, but I promise I am not and never have been a junior doctor and neither have any of my children. If you quote me in a post then I am entitled to think that post is directed at me.
Trying to have a rational discussion with you is, I'm afraid, like dealing with a talking budgie or the speaking clock.

I really don't care what you have to say as I find you goading and unpleasant.

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MissAnthr0pe · 18/05/2025 13:12

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:08

There needs to be a middle ground. Uk graduates have priority but IMGs guaranteed a visa even if outside UK if filling vacant posts.

Yep, agree with this. Better workforce planning is certainly needed in postgraduate medical education.

(sorry - had to delete my original post as I posted twice by mistake)

thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 13:16

Is there any reason why this thread is appearing under the Shopping section rather than the main thread ? Seems a bit odd....

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 13:19

They apply for every surgical job going: whether that be Manchester,
inverness, Bridgend or Belfast.
join armed forces
or they change course and specialise in a different branch of medicine.

the job will go to the most suitable candidate who applies.

thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 13:24

Howisitonlymonday · 18/05/2025 08:32

I'm a clinically practising GP and also work in a UK medical school.
The training jobs situation is complex and multifactorial (apologies for the long post!):

Previously we did prioritise UK doctors for training posts. The current situation has arisen because, for many years, UK NHS Trusts were unable to fill many of their training posts. This was because UK graduates wanted to go off to Australia/ NZ/Canada for a few years, or wanted to train part-time, or wanted to do trust grade/locum posts until a very specific post became available. Trusts had to jump through a lot of hoops to employ an IMG, so it was disincentivised. Training posts have a significant service delivery element, so it had become very difficult to run safe rotas, especially in areas of most need (outside of the SE and major cities). The Conservative government had threatened for some time to open up these posts so that IMGs (international medical graduates who have passed stringent UK medical exams and language tests) would have equal standing, and eventually they did it.

I don't think the DoH had any grasp of just how many experienced, well educated IMGs would apply for training posts - they are outcompeting our UK grads because they have years more experience, so on a points-based application/interview they can easily get the job, and there is also the phenomenon of the application portal getting saturated before UK grads have had chance to apply. This policy needs reversing and quickly, but there is a little bit of me that thinks that UK doctors have been very happy to take advantage of the international jobs market when it suits them, and were very happy to go off to Australia rather than take a job elsewhere in the UK, but don't like it when the privilege is reversed.

There have also always been bottle necks in training in different specialities from time to time, partly because workforce planning in the NHS has been non-existent forever, and partly because many surgical and some medical specialties are very competitive, not everyone who wants to have that career will be able to, or they may need to move around the country to train, and that has always been the case and was accepted by doctors. If you were offered a post in a competitive specialty that was at the other end of the country, you would always have had to take it and be thankful. This is especially true of many surgical specialities. Many of us, myself included, have had to make the choice between moving away to pursue a more competitive/smaller speciality (most surgical specialities, O&G, cardiology, some smaller specialities), or staying local and going into something (usually GP or Psychiatry, or A&E) that is easier to get into.

NHS jobs are made where there is a population need, not where doctors necessarily want to live and work. There would be an outcry if we were using taxpayer's money to make more jobs in the SE/ major cities than are needed, and fewer in the provinces, to accommodate the preferences of doctors. New UK graduates are guaranteed a foundation training place but, again, it may not be where they want to be geographically. This is the case in other countries also. Yes this is harsh when people have to move away from their support network, but being a doctor in training has always been very hard.

There is also the situation that a PP refers to of doctors who have completed training being unable to get consultant posts. Again, for surgical specialities this has been the case for as long as I can remember - there would be an expectation of a post-CCT fellowship, often abroad, or a higher degree, before you'd be competitive for consultant posts.
For GPs and generalist hospital posts, availability of jobs comes and goes in waves and is due to the funding landscape at the time. When I got my CCT in 2007, only two doctors in my training cohort of 60 were able to find substantive jobs straight from training! We then had years and years of there being loads of jobs because people preferred the flexibility and higher pay of locum work. The jobs market has tightened up considerably in the past 2 years, not because the work isn't there, but because there's no money/space to employ people.

The GP locum market dried up completely within months when the ARRS funding (specifically for nurse practitioners/ physician associates etc) became available and practices had an incentive to fill their empty rooms with essentially free HCPs rather than expensive locum doctors. The empty substantive posts then all filled within a few months, as long-term locums couldn't find work and scrabbled to get into substantive posts. This has been great for practice - GP numbers have stabilised for the first time in many years - but we have the ridiculous situation of GPs who are unable to find work on one hand, and the GPs who are in jobs being overworked to the point of burnout on the other, because there are still not enough GPs for the complexity of the workload and there is now a huge supervision burden in practice, because NPs and PAs are (in some practices) being asked to see patients that are too complex for their training.

The labour government is hearing all this, the BMA and the Royal Colleges are lobbying hard, but it takes time and attention to sort all of this. So far we have had sticking plasters (such as ARRS funding being allowed to employ newly qualified GPs), but they are busy writing their 10-year NHS plan, and re-working the long term workforce plan, both due later this summer, and we won't get much else out of them until that point. History suggests that this situation will get resolved, but it is hard on the people who are caught up in the mess at the time. I narrowly escaped the MTAS debacle of 2007/8, which affected many of my peers, but we are all now working as GPs and Consultants. I would advise anyone in this situation to take whatever job they can, even if that means moving elsewhere in the UK for a couple of years, or doing a fellowship post, or going abroad, and bide their time.

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this explanation. Its very helpful to understand the recent history behind this. Let's hope that, as you say, they get it sorted because its clearly an unacceptable situation for us as a country to be training junior doctors to then lose them abroad. At my local hospital we appear have a revolving door of locums and agency staff, most from overseas, at extortionate cost. A ridiculous situation. I know some of the permanent staff are not happy with it all.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:26

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 13:19

They apply for every surgical job going: whether that be Manchester,
inverness, Bridgend or Belfast.
join armed forces
or they change course and specialise in a different branch of medicine.

the job will go to the most suitable candidate who applies.

There are virtually no surgical jobs and the ones advertised have hundreds if not 1000s of applications.

Surgical training application is UK wide once a year and centralised. DC happy to move anywhere but did not get a training post.

There is strict criteria to applications so surgeon would most likely not have correct criteria to do medical training and would have to do medical exams while unemployed for a year. PACES requires hospital experience I. M

Armed forces medics apply when in medical school.

DC very good candidate but not a level playing field when in competition with foreign doctors with years more experience than a doctor in their 20s.

OP posts:
mumda · 18/05/2025 13:34

@PurpleFairyLights Is there a petition? This feels like something that everyone should be made aware of.

NCJD · 18/05/2025 13:35

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 13:19

They apply for every surgical job going: whether that be Manchester,
inverness, Bridgend or Belfast.
join armed forces
or they change course and specialise in a different branch of medicine.

the job will go to the most suitable candidate who applies.

But what if that ‘most suitable candidate’ is a doctor trained abroad with many, many more years experience who therefore scores much higher on the points based application system then a UK junior? A points based system that is increasingly becoming impossible for British trained doctors to meet as, vicious circle, they aren’t in jobs to meet them?

Forgetting the welfare of British trained junior doctors, where is the economic sense in pumping more and more medical students out with every passing year, at ££££ to the taxpayer, for them to face economic inactivity?

FeatherDawn · 18/05/2025 13:46

footpath · 18/05/2025 08:30

Why do the jobs go to those from overseas? Are they cheaper?

No they are often more experienced Doctors applying to get their foot in the door.
It's an absolutely shocking system

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:52

I am thinking of starting a petition. Would welcome any advice on doing so.

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mumda · 18/05/2025 13:57

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 13:52

I am thinking of starting a petition. Would welcome any advice on doing so.

What's the focus. Pin point focus is needed.
What are you asking the government to do?

The petition process is a bit annoying as you get it approved then 10 or 20 people have to sign it before you get it "live" and then you need to get some PR ready for launch but ideally need a few thousand to sign immediately to kick it off.

They'll debate if you get to enough signatures.
To make the news it needs to be big.

Some political support would be good.

mumda · 18/05/2025 13:58

Collate names / papers of journalists and find them on linkedIn and message them for support -
You need to be organised to ensure you keep pulling people in to promote it.

You'll need a spokesperson (some of the people affected perhaps)

Some example stories ready for the press to work on.
The modern press is very dozy and will cut and paste stuff as content - so you need quotes, photos, headline of most important points, with less important going down, and then a message - call to action at the bottom of the story.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 14:01

I think I would be asking for reversal of 2019 decision and any vacancies offered to foreign doctors that do not have to be in uk to get a visa.

Would welcome opinions

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Northerngirl821 · 18/05/2025 14:12

Surely you need to check that doctors that are UK citizens all have jobs before you grant highly skilled visas for foreign doctors?

Nope, the Tory government didn’t care about that. They wanted to flood the market with foreign labour so that they could drive down wages. They also expanded the scope and training for PAs as a cheaper alternative to doctors. Doctors are expensive both to train and employ so replacing them with alternative roles and doctors trained abroad saves money.

It’s a disastrous long term policy but they knew they’d be gone by the time the shit hit the fan.

Anyone blaming this on Labour is very shortsighted - this situation has been developing for years. Labour are just the ones left to pick up the pieces.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 14:15

thegirlwithemousyhair · 18/05/2025 13:16

Is there any reason why this thread is appearing under the Shopping section rather than the main thread ? Seems a bit odd....

Is that for everyone? Looks like in main AIBU area...

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PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 14:19

On LBC a GP phoned in to say during emergency hospital admission they saw multiple different allied professionals before saw a doctor that could prescribe and order xray. Each time had to go through history. What a waste of time.

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Serencwtch · 18/05/2025 14:21

I thought the majority of medical students & junior doctors planned to work in Australia & other countries. I remember watching BBC breakfast a couple of years ago with a BMA representative saying there were very few planning on working in the NHS because they could get paid more working on Costa

Assume they miscalculated but the government would obviously have acted on the BMA advice & tried to recruit overseas.

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 14:26

If they go abroad to work do they still have to pay back their loan?

i agree with the point that commitment to 10 years nhs service should mean the loan is nullified.

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