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Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

1000 replies

PurpleFairyLights · 17/05/2025 22:13

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

OP posts:
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46
RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:25

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:23

Sadly the nhs are decades behind other employers when it comes to employee wellbeing, flexible working and mental health. They are firmly in the camp of employer knows best and staff will all comply, despite advertising the opposite.

Demands and targets are being constantly raised, staff morale and stress issues are huge. Micromanaging and nit picking and frequently pointing out negatives are regular features by management who have not worked clinically for decades, if at all, but still think they know the best way of running things.

They are also decades behind other sectors in relation to customer service. The tone of appointment letters and the way some staff speak to patients, on occasion, is reprehensible.

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:26

sparrowflewdown · 18/05/2025 10:21

This has been a problem since the Blair/Brown days in the early 2000s. My DH had to move all over the country every six months, fresh applications etc whilst trying to complete his MRCS. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for junior doctors now with even more competition for places.

It must be mush harder nowadays too with the extortionate costs and availability of accommodation. In previous decades this was not as much of an issue.

Truetoself · 18/05/2025 10:26

@mumsneedwineashamed to say I am unsure of the recent GP vote you are talking about?

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:29

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:25

They are also decades behind other sectors in relation to customer service. The tone of appointment letters and the way some staff speak to patients, on occasion, is reprehensible.

There is never any excuse for rudeness, and it’s not something I come across in our area at all.

But many staff are completely burnt out and have an impossible task, trying to provide the level of care they want to provide as their hands are tied.

throwawaynametoday · 18/05/2025 10:33

Howisitonlymonday · 18/05/2025 08:32

I'm a clinically practising GP and also work in a UK medical school.
The training jobs situation is complex and multifactorial (apologies for the long post!):

Previously we did prioritise UK doctors for training posts. The current situation has arisen because, for many years, UK NHS Trusts were unable to fill many of their training posts. This was because UK graduates wanted to go off to Australia/ NZ/Canada for a few years, or wanted to train part-time, or wanted to do trust grade/locum posts until a very specific post became available. Trusts had to jump through a lot of hoops to employ an IMG, so it was disincentivised. Training posts have a significant service delivery element, so it had become very difficult to run safe rotas, especially in areas of most need (outside of the SE and major cities). The Conservative government had threatened for some time to open up these posts so that IMGs (international medical graduates who have passed stringent UK medical exams and language tests) would have equal standing, and eventually they did it.

I don't think the DoH had any grasp of just how many experienced, well educated IMGs would apply for training posts - they are outcompeting our UK grads because they have years more experience, so on a points-based application/interview they can easily get the job, and there is also the phenomenon of the application portal getting saturated before UK grads have had chance to apply. This policy needs reversing and quickly, but there is a little bit of me that thinks that UK doctors have been very happy to take advantage of the international jobs market when it suits them, and were very happy to go off to Australia rather than take a job elsewhere in the UK, but don't like it when the privilege is reversed.

There have also always been bottle necks in training in different specialities from time to time, partly because workforce planning in the NHS has been non-existent forever, and partly because many surgical and some medical specialties are very competitive, not everyone who wants to have that career will be able to, or they may need to move around the country to train, and that has always been the case and was accepted by doctors. If you were offered a post in a competitive specialty that was at the other end of the country, you would always have had to take it and be thankful. This is especially true of many surgical specialities. Many of us, myself included, have had to make the choice between moving away to pursue a more competitive/smaller speciality (most surgical specialities, O&G, cardiology, some smaller specialities), or staying local and going into something (usually GP or Psychiatry, or A&E) that is easier to get into.

NHS jobs are made where there is a population need, not where doctors necessarily want to live and work. There would be an outcry if we were using taxpayer's money to make more jobs in the SE/ major cities than are needed, and fewer in the provinces, to accommodate the preferences of doctors. New UK graduates are guaranteed a foundation training place but, again, it may not be where they want to be geographically. This is the case in other countries also. Yes this is harsh when people have to move away from their support network, but being a doctor in training has always been very hard.

There is also the situation that a PP refers to of doctors who have completed training being unable to get consultant posts. Again, for surgical specialities this has been the case for as long as I can remember - there would be an expectation of a post-CCT fellowship, often abroad, or a higher degree, before you'd be competitive for consultant posts.
For GPs and generalist hospital posts, availability of jobs comes and goes in waves and is due to the funding landscape at the time. When I got my CCT in 2007, only two doctors in my training cohort of 60 were able to find substantive jobs straight from training! We then had years and years of there being loads of jobs because people preferred the flexibility and higher pay of locum work. The jobs market has tightened up considerably in the past 2 years, not because the work isn't there, but because there's no money/space to employ people.

The GP locum market dried up completely within months when the ARRS funding (specifically for nurse practitioners/ physician associates etc) became available and practices had an incentive to fill their empty rooms with essentially free HCPs rather than expensive locum doctors. The empty substantive posts then all filled within a few months, as long-term locums couldn't find work and scrabbled to get into substantive posts. This has been great for practice - GP numbers have stabilised for the first time in many years - but we have the ridiculous situation of GPs who are unable to find work on one hand, and the GPs who are in jobs being overworked to the point of burnout on the other, because there are still not enough GPs for the complexity of the workload and there is now a huge supervision burden in practice, because NPs and PAs are (in some practices) being asked to see patients that are too complex for their training.

The labour government is hearing all this, the BMA and the Royal Colleges are lobbying hard, but it takes time and attention to sort all of this. So far we have had sticking plasters (such as ARRS funding being allowed to employ newly qualified GPs), but they are busy writing their 10-year NHS plan, and re-working the long term workforce plan, both due later this summer, and we won't get much else out of them until that point. History suggests that this situation will get resolved, but it is hard on the people who are caught up in the mess at the time. I narrowly escaped the MTAS debacle of 2007/8, which affected many of my peers, but we are all now working as GPs and Consultants. I would advise anyone in this situation to take whatever job they can, even if that means moving elsewhere in the UK for a couple of years, or doing a fellowship post, or going abroad, and bide their time.

Thank you for the detailed explaination. I am not a HCP and so a lot of the detail is lost on me but if I understand you correctly, the primary driver for for opening up recruitment to IMGs was due to a shortage of UK trained applicants at the time.

Surely a simple solution to this would be a two stage process which prioritises UK candidates, but then enables applications to be widened to IMGs without unnecessary red tape IF the post cannot be filled at the first stage? Given what is being said about roles attracting 1000s of applications within hours, it doesn't sound like this would significantly lengthen the time frame from advertising a position to filling it.

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:34

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2025 10:25

@RosesAndHelleboresyou do realise why the NHS was to be ‘saved’ ? Because all
the staff were dealing with Covid, so if you had a heart attack there were no staff left to save you. And it took a while to reopen as many of those staff were burned out and had stress from watching so many people die every day. My friend watched 18 people die one night. She lived away from her kids for 3 months so not to infect them. She worked 20 hour days. And for doing all this she tooK a pay cut of 35%.

If you lost respect for doctors during covid I have no words. Clapping was an insult.

Those who were at home, furloughed, had no idea what was going on in hospitals.

Does that also apply to all the GP practices who closed their doors and barely opened for another year?

Does it apply to the MH services that went on line. My dd needed BP and weight taken due to the drugs she was taking and had recovered from anorexia. The clinic closed and she was told to monitor her own BP and weight or get it done at the pharmacy. Nobody has ever explained why it was less dangerous for the oharmacist to take BP and weight F2F than it was for a specialist MH Nurse. The admin teams are still working remotely and all calls go through to an answering machine and the patient gets a ring back at their convenience. If they don't have the technology to divert a call to a mobile, then they need to get back into the office. Let's not forget many people with MH problems find it hard to navigate services.

Our opposite neighbours are surgeons. They were at home, on full pay, during much of covid.

The situation after covid was totally unacceptable.

You would do well to remove your rose tinted spectacles. The public was not sold the entire truth during covid. There were more deaths but a very high proportion related to people dying with not from covid.

Misgivingmum · 18/05/2025 10:34

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:25

They are also decades behind other sectors in relation to customer service. The tone of appointment letters and the way some staff speak to patients, on occasion, is reprehensible.

What about the often unrecognised and vastly under reported issue around how patients treat staff? A lot of NHS staff face daily verbal and physical abuse.

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:37

Also @needsmoresleep not all doctors were working on covid. And not all members of the public were furloughed. I certainly wasn't; DH wasn't and the staff at the supermarkets weren't. Neither were those staff dropping like flies. Covid was not the plague and there was a plethora or Health Department misinformation and misrepresentation.

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:44

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:29

There is never any excuse for rudeness, and it’s not something I come across in our area at all.

But many staff are completely burnt out and have an impossible task, trying to provide the level of care they want to provide as their hands are tied.

I have been twice to our local A&E. On both occasions I have heard staff nurses and admin staff literally shouting at patients and families and fkr no good reason that I can determine (and an ambulance crew). It is very ugly. Don't get me started on the orthopaedic outpatient clinic. Awful, just awful. Some very rude and terse surgeons there. I have not seen patients being anything like as rude.

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:44

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 10:34

Does that also apply to all the GP practices who closed their doors and barely opened for another year?

Does it apply to the MH services that went on line. My dd needed BP and weight taken due to the drugs she was taking and had recovered from anorexia. The clinic closed and she was told to monitor her own BP and weight or get it done at the pharmacy. Nobody has ever explained why it was less dangerous for the oharmacist to take BP and weight F2F than it was for a specialist MH Nurse. The admin teams are still working remotely and all calls go through to an answering machine and the patient gets a ring back at their convenience. If they don't have the technology to divert a call to a mobile, then they need to get back into the office. Let's not forget many people with MH problems find it hard to navigate services.

Our opposite neighbours are surgeons. They were at home, on full pay, during much of covid.

The situation after covid was totally unacceptable.

You would do well to remove your rose tinted spectacles. The public was not sold the entire truth during covid. There were more deaths but a very high proportion related to people dying with not from covid.

GPs were actually working again pretty quickly and although a lot of appointments were moved to telephone or online, these were pretty efficient in lots of cases.

It is quite possible to monitor your own Bp and weight without needing to have an appointment for this.

You sound quite judgemental about your surgeon neighbour. Maybe they had high vulnerability status so were told to work at home? Despite what you obviously think, the wards were very busy initially with Covid patients who were very poorly, so it was impossible to run normal clinics and elective surgery alongside this.

those of us who normally see outpatient were redeployed to wards to help out in anyway we could, including being porters, or giving out meals.

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 10:48

@NCJD Did I say we should ban all women from applying for medicine? No. I do however think that we could expect people who think they should be doctors to have the wits to know that the future will resemble the past. Doctors have always had to move to get their next job and more experience, the world is not going to change for them. No one makes them get married/have children soon after graduating. The reality is that couples will probably have to live apart at some stage, because not all hospitals are in London or large cities. Doctors have always known and accepted this or given up.
Were all of these junior doctors promised consultant jobs? It sounds unlikely.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 10:54

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 10:48

@NCJD Did I say we should ban all women from applying for medicine? No. I do however think that we could expect people who think they should be doctors to have the wits to know that the future will resemble the past. Doctors have always had to move to get their next job and more experience, the world is not going to change for them. No one makes them get married/have children soon after graduating. The reality is that couples will probably have to live apart at some stage, because not all hospitals are in London or large cities. Doctors have always known and accepted this or given up.
Were all of these junior doctors promised consultant jobs? It sounds unlikely.

This thread is not about moving to get a training post. It is about inability to get a training post due to completion ratios due in influx of foreign doctors applying for training places. This year saw 33000 foreign doctors applying for training places in the UK.

Please see the link on my original post.

OP posts:
ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 11:17

Unfortunately economics dictates if you have a finite budget when wages rise there will be fewer jobs available.

the itv news link did discuss a doctor wanting to work in the Manchester area but not finding work so was considering moving to Australia to further their career; staying within their support network and locale of many years is attractive to many graduates not just doctors. Flexibility to relocate is desirable and makes a candidate very attractive to new employers.
I think I would suggest the doctor cast their net a bit wider UK location wise before moving to the other side of the world, if their aims are as altruistic as the profession would like to appear. There is nothing wrong with wanting good money and conditions or working in a lovely area but be honest: the fetishisation of the nhs and the medical profession is thankfully going which is good for everyone.

I understand your frustration and have sympathy for your adult child but what was a safe bet of good wages, job security and excellent time off and pension has been opened up to the rest of the world and seems to be more competitive not the easy shoe in it once was.

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 11:17

@PurpleFairyLights it may not be what the thread's
about, but many people have mentioned it as an obstacle to progression.
Are you a police officer in real life, or only on here?
I think you'll find people are allowed to voice their own opinions.

awishes · 18/05/2025 11:18

Blimeyblighty · 17/05/2025 22:39

are clinical fellow roles and locum posts not an option for your DC? Trying to understand the landscape.

Locum posts are becoming scarce due to a miriad of reasons.
This is affecting all training posts, core training, specialist training and consultant roles too.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 11:28

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 11:17

@PurpleFairyLights it may not be what the thread's
about, but many people have mentioned it as an obstacle to progression.
Are you a police officer in real life, or only on here?
I think you'll find people are allowed to voice their own opinions.

I don't think this thread should be derailed by complaints about covid etc. There are always the unpleasant characters that crawl out. The people we are talking about were at medical school or school during Covid.

OP posts:
PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 11:33

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 11:17

Unfortunately economics dictates if you have a finite budget when wages rise there will be fewer jobs available.

the itv news link did discuss a doctor wanting to work in the Manchester area but not finding work so was considering moving to Australia to further their career; staying within their support network and locale of many years is attractive to many graduates not just doctors. Flexibility to relocate is desirable and makes a candidate very attractive to new employers.
I think I would suggest the doctor cast their net a bit wider UK location wise before moving to the other side of the world, if their aims are as altruistic as the profession would like to appear. There is nothing wrong with wanting good money and conditions or working in a lovely area but be honest: the fetishisation of the nhs and the medical profession is thankfully going which is good for everyone.

I understand your frustration and have sympathy for your adult child but what was a safe bet of good wages, job security and excellent time off and pension has been opened up to the rest of the world and seems to be more competitive not the easy shoe in it once was.

So ok to train UK doctors and once they have 100k of debt leave them without a job?

The 33000 foreign doctors thar applied for UK training may not stay in the UK. So who will be in the consultant posts in the future?

Your post has a underlying unpleasant tone. Almost that you are jealous of these junior doctors. Walk a mile in their shoes and you may change your mind.

OP posts:
awishes · 18/05/2025 11:35

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 09:26

Can someone please do something to stop NHS doctors openly complaining to patients. They may feel hard done by but comparatively they are significantly more privileged than 95% of the population.

The perpetual whingeing does them no favours regardless of the prevailing government. If DH or I were to openly complain to key stakeholders about our institutions it would be regarded as gross misconduct and we would be dismissed.

Privileged how?

RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 11:35

Watermelonices · 18/05/2025 10:44

GPs were actually working again pretty quickly and although a lot of appointments were moved to telephone or online, these were pretty efficient in lots of cases.

It is quite possible to monitor your own Bp and weight without needing to have an appointment for this.

You sound quite judgemental about your surgeon neighbour. Maybe they had high vulnerability status so were told to work at home? Despite what you obviously think, the wards were very busy initially with Covid patients who were very poorly, so it was impossible to run normal clinics and elective surgery alongside this.

those of us who normally see outpatient were redeployed to wards to help out in anyway we could, including being porters, or giving out meals.

It is more than possible.to monitor BP and weight oneself but not necessarily the clinically right thing to expect someone with MH issues and recovering from anorexia to do.

The neighbour is not vulnerable. Their clinics and surgical sessions were cancelled!

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 11:51

It’s hard when career paths and plans go awry. The ability to adapt is a good attribute to have.

I have close family who are doctors and they have worked as hard as the non graduates but had to relocate and compromise on their perfect job.
life for young people in their twenties is extremely hard, career and personal development. Everyone is different I suppose; my eldest dc is a graduate, three years qualified and I’m always their to support and advise but I do not cross the line and become so heavily invested in their career, they are adults and infantilisation of young people does not help them become independent and grow.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 12:01

ThatAgileCoralBird · 18/05/2025 11:51

It’s hard when career paths and plans go awry. The ability to adapt is a good attribute to have.

I have close family who are doctors and they have worked as hard as the non graduates but had to relocate and compromise on their perfect job.
life for young people in their twenties is extremely hard, career and personal development. Everyone is different I suppose; my eldest dc is a graduate, three years qualified and I’m always their to support and advise but I do not cross the line and become so heavily invested in their career, they are adults and infantilisation of young people does not help them become independent and grow.

How does a surgeon adapt when they are unemployed because they are unable to continue another 5 -6 years of surgical training?

Who will be surgical consultants in the future when foreign doctors go back to their home countries?

OP posts:
RosesAndHellebores · 18/05/2025 12:06

I apologise for derailing.
I sincerely believe that training pathways and jobs shoukd be available for UK trained medics.

I believe that student loans shoukd not bebrepayable for British people who qualify as drs in the UK but providing they render ten years of service to the UK. This suggestion is always met with an outcry that indenture in any form is unfair. Teaching apprentices have to commit to teaching for a set period, many people who undertake professional quals paid for by their employers have to stay for a period or repay the costs. Why should it be different for doctors and nurses? It has to work both ways imo.

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 12:10

@PurpleFairyLights try not to be so muddle headed. You scolded me for believing that juniors not wanting to move might be affecting their ability to get jobs. When I pointed out that many people on here seem to think that they shouldn't have to move to train you said you didn't want covid mentioned, although I didn't refer to covid at all.
In fact the most unpleasant underlying tone is yours re. foreign doctors.

Ukisgaslit · 18/05/2025 12:14

mumsneedwine · 18/05/2025 10:15

@PurpleFairyLightsif you’re not involved with doctors it’s hard to believe how badly they are treated. Even once they are in a deanery they can be placed, every 6 months, at hospitals several
hours apart. It’s hard to settle, make friends, build a family. Rotational training sucks.

Nurses are unemployed this year too. And the BMA are asking for jobs for all doctors, however there are many IMGs in the BMA leadership who don’t like the idea (see recent GP vote).

I was going to mention the deanery issue myself in my previous post . Drs in core training can be sent to hospitals miles away - doing longs / night shifts .
The training system was set up for single men in the 1940s / 1950s- they had catered lodging in the hospital too . I think it was free- yes they were doing ( unregulated) longer hours then but drs had support systems in the hospitals. Now the drs can often not even have a drs room or a computer they can claim .
I used to have a theory that any profession which changed from being male dominated to have a high proportion of women almost immediately suffers a decrease in terms and conditions .
There may be something else going on to explain it but I’m not sure what - apart from a society built for billionaires and the rest of us are wage slaves

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 12:20

oddandelsewhere · 18/05/2025 12:10

@PurpleFairyLights try not to be so muddle headed. You scolded me for believing that juniors not wanting to move might be affecting their ability to get jobs. When I pointed out that many people on here seem to think that they shouldn't have to move to train you said you didn't want covid mentioned, although I didn't refer to covid at all.
In fact the most unpleasant underlying tone is yours re. foreign doctors.

It was a post pointing to a few other posts so not muddle headed.

Hilarious that you think you are so important. You need to learn it is not all about you!

My post is about protecting training places for doctors in this country in the first instance just like other countries do. Not against foreign doctors.

Our young people cannot be in a position that once they are doctors there is a good chance they will be unemployed.

I want to go back to the position we were in before the disastrous decision in 2019 that led to this dreadful position.

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